It's from a post entitled "We're Still At War" over at Mother Jones. It's a snapshot taken of a PRT somewhere in Afghanistan.But I've gotta say; nothing in this photo makes me think of "war". It looks, if anything, like a couple of GIs goofing around on some low-importance field problem. All we're missing is the blank adapters.
I mean, I know that this is a low-threat environment. But what is that poor bastard on the logs going to do if someone decides to bust a cap on his ass?
And his buddy behind him - what's he doing? He sure as hell isn't overwatching the far bank, based on where he's looking and where his rifle is pointing. Where's he going to go if things suddenly get hairy?
I mean, what this looks like to me is two guys sauntering through what we used to call a "linear danger area". Hopefully there's already someone on the far bank pulling far security as well as someone out of the picture on the near side with a 240B providing overwatch for the entire mess.
I hate to nitpick this stuff. But, honestly - isn't the whole point of COIN/counterinsurgency that there IS no "rear area"? That anytime you go outside the wire, you're moving like you anticipate contact? Didn't we learn this the hard way in the RVN, that "Charlie is waiting for you to relax"?
I know this is trivial stuff, but, really...aren't we supposed to have been fighting muj in central Asia for ten years now, rather than the one-year-twelve-times way we did the last one? Why don't I get a better feeling from these snapshots?
it's not man size....
ReplyDeleteLargely ineffectual or non-aggressive opponents lead to relaxed caution...
ReplyDeleteThere were also food couriers moving in the open and safely during static warfare phases in both World Wars. Such relaxed security appears and can be sustained as long as it's not going to be punished (during the great wars, troops of both sides often came to an implied partial cease fire in order to reduce the harassment).
SO: The linear nature of most of the Great Wars, as well as the nature of the armies that fought it, made sense to observe unofficial truces for things like eating and resting (tho I've read enough accounts of the opposite to get the feeling that this was VERY fragile, and a single nasty incident could end up fucking things over for all the guys) but this isn't that. It's a guerrilla war/occupation; the whole crux of the biscuit is that the bad guys look like the good guys and probably ARE the good guys come daytime and when the GIs are around. Doing this right wouldn't seem all that difficult, but it wouldn't include two guys diddy-bopping around out in an open danger area. If the second guy was in the prone waiting to cross, that'd almost be enough for me. This says REALLY relaxed, to me...
ReplyDeleteBut the whole point of having a "combat-experienced" army is that your sergeants are supposed to be on the guys' asses all the time about stuff like this. All it takes is ONE competent enemy to fuck your whole day up. It doesn't do you a hell of a lot of good to catch/avoid/defeat 95% of all the mines, booby-traps, or ambushes if sloppy field discipline gives them the remaining 5%. "Charlie is waiting for you to relax", remember?
I get that the guys DO relax...but I guess the thing that bugs me is I see a LOT of this sort of stuff. We've been doing it for a frigging decade; even the REMFs whould be pretty strac by now, dontcha think?
The REMFs are sitting in the major bases, servicing helicopters or protecting the MacDonald's from attack.
ReplyDeleteThe actually patrolling troops are a small minority.
SO/Chief,
ReplyDeleteIn a theater war the CS/CSS dudes, or Remfs as SO calls them SHOULD NEVER be within mortar range of the enemy. That's why you have a FLOT/FEBA etc..
Let's get very picky in this pic.
-reconstruction is not achieved with rifles.
-who/how would you save this heavily laden trouppie if he fell in the drink? His protective gear would insure that he drown.
If PRT's are doing anything constructive then why are they farcking around smartly-just look at his uniform and gear which is world class and he's opposing dudes in shower shoes with rags on their heads.
-Is this all a cosmic joke?
Chief,
We both do these pics b/c that's what we used to do best-lead troops.
jim
SO: Even worse, then - these are the Elite Strike Force Driving Fear Into The Hearts of the Taliban. Frankly, if I was a Talib with combat experience against the Soviets, the Northern Alliance, and now these guys, I'd be rolling around laughing so hard it'd hurt.
ReplyDeletejim: Well, I can tell you that if I was a hardcore private and my squad leader told me to shinny across that ridiculous wood bridge I'd have some hard words for his ass. Hell, I'd rather wade the damn creek than hang out there with a big sign reading "Shoot Me" stuck on my center of mass. I don't think I'd appreciate the joke...
Well I am not so worried, there could be an entire platoon on watch unseen in this photo. The photo was taken from the other side of the creek or river by an Air Force Photographer. So I have to assume that there is already some type of security already set up. And the Mother Jones article states the PRT is made up of Air Force, Army, DoS, USAID and USDoA people, not just GIs. They were there to put in a village well. So I would opine that the two shown are not tactical and are going to meet and greet or drill the well.
ReplyDeleteBut maybe they should have built a bridge instead. As for the existing bridge, I do not know where Khwazi village is but from the color of the water I bet it is freezing snow or glacier melt, and not very deep. So it could be waded but freezing wet feet would not be a good thing even in June in the mountains. There is risk also from unsure footing on the river rocks which I would think are more unstable than that footbridge. It is obviously good enough for the locals, and it looks like it is probably rebuilt every year. There is some prestige involved also. How does the PRT save face with the villagers if they are afraid to cross the bridge the locals use.
I have done stupider things myself, but then I was not so smart when I was younger.
And back in March of 45 the 9th Armored Division took a lot more chances going across the Rhine at Remagen only ten minutes before the bridge charges were supposed to be blown by the retreating Wehrmacht. I know, I know, it was a completely different thing that had nothing to do with COIN. But regardless, sometimes you have to do due diligence in pondering the profit and loss balances of war accounting.
I hate to nitpick this stuff. But, honestly - isn't the whole point of COIN/counterinsurgency that there IS no "rear area"? That anytime you go outside the wire, you're moving like you anticipate contact? Didn't we learn this the hard way in the RVN, that "Charlie is waiting for you to relax"?
ReplyDeleteThe Obama administration has closed up shop on domestic terrorism, if it involves right-wing extremist hate groups/militias.
I'm sure it's safe.
bb
mike: there's no point is doing this in view of the village. In fact, it make no sense to risk letting the village's Taliban branch manager get his employee-of-the-month coffee cup by getting a lick in at some GI strolling along a freaking log.
ReplyDeleteYou cross the danger area well up- or downstream from the ville, so you can be in a good overwatch position to get eyes on before sauntering into the town square. Obviously these guys are under no enemy pressure. But why take stupid chances? To show the flag? For macho points? Afghans have seen a lot of war; surely they can appreciate a hardcore unit that does things the smart way rather than a bunch of gomers wandering around the boonies.
And I'd rather be wet and cold than dead. Dead is hard to come back from; it's only happened twice, or so I'm told.
Chief,
ReplyDeleteYour right, this is trivial stuff. Seriously, I don't know why we like to do this on this site, pull out a still photo and nit pick the "tactics" observed. Despite the fact we all recognize that the picture is a snap shot in time, where you only see 1% of the big picture (such as, you can't have a linear danger area within a larger danger area). Frankly, it is a little insulting. I have no doubt that there are some bad, lazy tactics being used on any given day, but let's not generalize based on insufficient info. Once piece of info missing is what is the probability of enemy contact in the area. Zabul happens to be one of the more secure provinces in the south. Probably not a lot of need to be in traveling overwatch.
Bottom line, neither of us know enough about this picture to say anything about the tactics, good or bad. There is just insufficient information. Instead, we have to make a lot of assumptions. And the number one assumption I am seeing made is that the NCOs here are all fucked up and don't know anything about tactics and keeping their boys alive. That is a pretty harsh charge based solely on a few snap shots in time viewed through a soda straw.
None of this takes away from the strategic mess that got these guys in this situation in the first place, but from a tactical point of view, lets give some credit where credit is due. The Soviets, fighting the same enemy on the same terrain, lost 13K and 35K wounded in 4 years. NATO is only a fraction of that in 10 years (about 2K). Way too many casualties compared to strategic gains, but we are talking tactics here, not foreign policy.
Chief - twice??? I am having a senior moment, could you refresh my memory?
ReplyDeleteLazarus, Jesus.
ReplyDeleteTabitha, who seemed to be sleeping.
ReplyDeleteAnd then there's all the mythologies, the heroic death/rebirth cycle of life.
mike, you need to go back to Sunday School. :D
bb
bb -
ReplyDeleteTabitha makes three in the new testament. Nothing in the older one I take it? But what about Aeneas of Troy? And Hercules, didn't they and several others visit the Styx and return? My 3-year-old granddaughter is yelling Snow White at me as I am typing.
Chief - I am with BG on this. The problem woth photographs as we have discussed before here is that they do not show the total picture. What is not shown on that pic?
The only thing we see is two guys sauntering through a danger area. That's not a good thing, regardless of the total picture.
ReplyDeleteIt's one thing to stroll along a road or trail when you're marching up to the "line" near Metz or along the Rapido River. But this is supposed to be a guerrilla war - there is supposed to be no "safe" rear areas. At least that's what they told me when we played counter-guerrilla war games.
I'd just as soon we figured out that we're shoving men and money down a central Asian rathole sooner rather than later. But if we're gonna be there, ISTM that we've been down this road and are supposed to know how to walk it. Judging from the way these two guys are, they don't, and nobody has taken the time to show them how to do it right.
Tabitha makes three in the new testament. Nothing in the older one I take it?
ReplyDeleteYes there was. The widow's son was revived by Elijah. Forgot about that one.
It seems you got a real smart cookie in that grand-daughter! Does she know Aurora's story too?
bb
I'm with BG on this one.
ReplyDeleteChief,
I think you have unreasonable expectations. There are "safe" areas in Afghanistan (safety being, of course, relative). METT-TC also still applies.
Chief - Could you or one of the other bartenders delete my 10 June 3:37 comment? Or at least redact the sentence where I name the guy on the footbridge. My bad and apologies for posting his name. I do not believe any of the derogatories posted here should follow the guy in the future if his wife or kids or friends should google him.
ReplyDeletethanks
mike
bb - I don't think she has the Sleeping Beauty DVD. But her 3rd birthday is less than a month away. Thanks for the tip.
ReplyDeleteby the way - am currently reading the book by David Leigh and Luke Harding, an editor and correspondent of the Guardian, on WikiLeaks subtitled 'Inside Julian Assange's War on Secrecy'. It is quite a read, I recommend it.
Chief - Good news for you old school Army guys at:
ReplyDeletehttp://kitup.military.com/2011/06/army-ditches-beret.html
Let's hope they go pack to p1sscutters.
"Chief - Could you or one of the other bartenders delete my 10 June 3:37 comment? Or at least redact the sentence where I name the guy on the footbridge. My bad and apologies for posting his name. I do not believe any of the derogatories posted here should follow the guy in the future if his wife or kids or friends should google him."
ReplyDeleteAgree, Mike. Comment deleted.
Chief,
ReplyDelete"It's one thing to stroll along a road or trail when you're marching up to the "line" near Metz or along the Rapido River. But this is supposed to be a guerrilla war - there is supposed to be no "safe" rear areas...Judging from the way these two guys are, they don't, and nobody has taken the time to show them how to do it right. "
I say again. There is no such thing as a linear danger area within a larger danger area. Based on the other pictures in this collection, it looks like line of sight in this area probably exceeds small arms. But I too, am just guessing.
I still find your assumptions harsh and unsubstantiated. The assumption that these soldiers and their NCOs are incompetent is really not fair based on what you can see in this photo. The assumption that there are no "safe" rear areas in an insurgency assumes that the guerilla force has a presence in the area. I have been in many places in both AFG and Iraq that I would consider safer than some areas of Baltimore. (What drives me nuts is that commanders will still insist on soldiers being in full battle rattle and "at the ready" in areas that are proven safe).
thanks Publius!
ReplyDeleteI recall we used to have many discussions in the past at the old 'IntelDump' blog regarding the lack of ROTC programs at Ivy League Universities since the late 60s - early 70s. Here is an article about a restart of those programs, at least at one. Or has some other school beaten Yale?
ReplyDeletehttp://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/r-o-t-c-returns-to-yale-and-a-soldier-applauds/
bg,
ReplyDeleteIf i were a G i'd use a pressure sensitve trigger.
What is their avenue of escape once they are over the bridge? Where is `the ORP? Remeber Ranger School??-where are their lifesavers?
A submerged 40 lb shaped charge under this critter would launch any soldier into close orbit.
Pls do , i beg, excuse my cmts since i lack totally in PC sentiments.
Pls remember that we say what we say b/c we care about the soldiers welfare, and don't really care about their feelings. I've spent way too many days in DVA facilities talking to fucked up soldiers. This may trump familiarity with the AO's.
If I'M WRONG NOBODY DIES-IF THEY'RE WRONG THEN.....theirs another asshole spending eternity in a DVA facility.
I'm in Chiefs corner. Let's face facts-fuck this picture, this war is just pure fucking stupidity.
jim
Jim:
ReplyDeleteNot sure I understand the problem here. From this photo, what makes you think that someone has not already checked the footbridge and the creek underneath it for an IED?
As far as we can tell from this photo the surrounding area on both sides of this creek have been cleared and are crawling with US GIs.
As far as their avenues of escape, why should we here surmise that they do not have one - as it seems obvious to me there are unseen troops already across? An Air Force photographer is on the far side and taking the picture, are you and Chief supposing he crossed by himself ahead of point security?
Regarding the ORP, why do you think from this photo that they do not have one already established? Same for an overwatch that could be unseen in this photo.
There are too many unknowns here to criticize these troops. The only bone of contention I see is possibly whether he should have waded or used the footbridge. For December at high altitude in this creek, I myself would try the footbridge after checking it out, and of course if the area had been secured already. Which as far as we know from this pic may have already happened.
Furthermore, perhaps the photographer staged this photo and asked the trooper to pose on the bridge long after the area was secured. I see no reason to criticize these guys and assume they are headed to a VA hospital.
bg: If this area is so damn safe, why are these guys there and not the indigs? I'd assume that economy of force would mean the expensive foreign jannissaries are in the high-threat areas doing the things we're supposed to be better at than the locals?
ReplyDeleteSame-same for B-mo; ain't no GIs there, the local cops are (or aren't) doing the lifting.
Like I said; all you can see is what you can see, and from here, it looks like Amateur Night.
mike; If the guys really DID let the photog pose them, then this really IS a sham and they're probably out behind the FOB.
Again; folks, this is supposed to be an "You Army At War" moment. These guys are supposed to be out fearing-up the bad guys and reassuring the locals with our military prowess. All I'd think, if I was a local and this is what I saw when looked out my window, would be "My, what a lovely target".
Okay, I'm a harsh, unsubstantial asshole; pretty much any of my troops and most of my ex-wives could tell you that. But the bottom line is that all the public knows about these wars is what turns up on the TV, in the news, and this sort of photo. The mindless rah-rah boys are gonna rah-rah whatever, the no-blood-for-oil crowds won't ever see the point of having soldiers, period. But if this is the best the PAO peeps can provide, well...good luck. It looks half-assish to me.
Chief,
ReplyDeleteYou and Jim might indeed be right, but as was pointed out, you really don't know and so your analysis of what's happening and the conclusions drawn are guesswork. You're extrapolating, filling in unknowns and making assumptions about what happened before this photo was taken, about what's happening outside the narrow field of view of this photo, along with a host of other things. Everything you say may indeed be true...or it may be completely untrue.
Let's try the same exercise with a different photo in a different context.
What should we assume about this photo? I suppose we could conclude that this little girl has irresponsible parents (who aren't even there!) for letting her ride in a street where she's in danger of getting hit by a car and without a helmet to boot. Of course, maybe this isn't a street, or maybe the street is closed, or maybe the photo was staged and maybe the girls parents are just outside of the frame or maybe they are down at the bar or maybe she doesn't even have parents. We don't know and it would be a mistake to assume we know or make definitive judgments absent additional information.
IMO, nobody's got enough information to reach a definitive judgment.
ReplyDeleteUnless you guys lambasting these troops have some inside information that's not available to the rest of us, I truly wonder just why this is a big thing.
I prefer going after elephants rather than fleas.
publius,
ReplyDeleteI doubt the validity of using the word-lambasting.
I prefer to call it constructive criticism.
Surely we mean no harm.
jim