tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post8392703028297483009..comments2023-10-30T06:31:05.501-07:00Comments on MilPub: The Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down?FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-78426243038473031602017-04-03T08:54:56.052-07:002017-04-03T08:54:56.052-07:00Just looked it up.
February 1989, WINTEX exercise....Just looked it up.<br />February 1989, WINTEX exercise.<br /><br />Kohl aborted the German participation when the NATO wargamers wanted to use a second salvo of nukes (first salvo was two dozen on Poland and Soviet Union).<br /><br />West German Cold War policy was to avoid nuclear explosions on/over Germany, which by our constitution included East Germany (and by our legal fiction of the time also the territories lost to Poland and SU in 1945).<br />One nuke on a German-Polish Oder bridge would have been unacceptable, ten nukes on Czechoslovakia would have been *meh* to us.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-81862840440653468442017-04-03T07:28:50.001-07:002017-04-03T07:28:50.001-07:00Coalition warfare DOES work. But it requires polit...Coalition warfare DOES work. But it requires political and strategic thought and cooperation, and an acceptance that some tactical and operational compromises will have to be made in the pursuit of the common end state. A couple of crude examples from the Second World War: the western allies had to keep doing enough stuff, even if some was of questionable value, in order to keep the Soviets in the fight; and while the American and Montgomery despised each other, compromises again had to be made because British and American interests were more important than General Officer egos.<br /><br />Coalition warfare (among western forces) runs into problems these days because western politicians have differing conclusions about risk/likelihood of global threats, and western military forces can't get their heads out of myopically tactical perspectives. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09312193379783857568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-47516965312483787382017-04-03T01:25:05.386-07:002017-04-03T01:25:05.386-07:00Chancellor Kohl once stopped German participation ...Chancellor Kohl once stopped German participation in a large NATO exercise once EAST German locations were nuked.<br /><br />The German Tornado IDS fleet was in great part purchased and operated to give NATO a conventional alternative to the use of nukes against East German targets.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-19184566269546547492017-04-02T11:59:58.677-07:002017-04-02T11:59:58.677-07:00Chief,
i understand what u say , and i'm not c...Chief,<br />i understand what u say , and i'm not combative.<br />back in the early 80s i was at LOGEX for the duration of the exercise.<br />in pre play conference the germans ,up front, stated that they would not play IF tac nukes were employed.<br />even back then they knew that we'd burn the village to save it.<br />this truth equals or exceeds communist nihilism.<br />jim hruskarangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-78260490768817113272017-04-02T02:47:26.023-07:002017-04-02T02:47:26.023-07:00And in case you meant the new one; I wrote a lengt...And in case you meant the new one; I wrote a lengthy draft and decided not to publish it. It was written centred on the "liar" nature and resulting unreliability. Initially hesitated to publish it because I had added another angle that was poorly sourced and probably not true.<br />Today I would at the very least add the Russia connection (if not blackmail potential).S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-10640707214807159132017-04-02T02:44:49.943-07:002017-04-02T02:44:49.943-07:00I began writing about this in 2009...
http://defe...I began writing about this in 2009...<br /><br />http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/2009/05/utility-of-nato.html<br />http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/2013/08/musings-about-small-powers-and-their.html<br />http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/2016/11/leaving-nato.htmlS Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-63025006975929068172017-04-01T22:53:50.046-07:002017-04-01T22:53:50.046-07:00Avedis -
The McCarthyism & mob mentality you ...Avedis -<br /><br />The McCarthyism & mob mentality you are talking about was the sliming of HRC over the sad events in Libya. Which would have never happened if the Republicans in Congress had not cut funding for Embassy and Consulate security. <br /><br />As for American Isolationism, I am for it and have been for decades. Trump is not and never has been and never will be an isolationist. His comments about NATO are just more of his attempts at negotiation - which he is terrible at if you examine his past track record in the business world.<br />mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-48138294874545253352017-04-01T21:54:52.169-07:002017-04-01T21:54:52.169-07:00Chief, Addressing Putin as a strong leader of coun...Chief, Addressing Putin as a strong leader of country with strong people and, it should not be forgotten lots of nuclear weapons and regional interests of its own and some interests in common with us - in other words, with the respect, understanding and courtesy we would like to be addressed with ourselves - is "sucking up"? If that isn't an imperialist perspective, I don't what is.<br /><br />Anyhow, you make my point for me re; irrational hatred. Why wouldn't the blue anti-war faction you speak of back up Trump if not for a cut of my nose to spite my face thinking? <br /><br />In fairness, when it comes to FP, there isn't any daylight between establishment Rs and Ds. A McCain, a Clinton, six of one, half dozen the other. Trump is not establishment. This is why they're all to get him. <br /><br />Also, I think you are totally misreading how Trump supporters feel about war. Most Trump supporters I know have no interest in imperialist wars at all. In fact, some are veterans of the longest war in our history and they want it all to end. That said, many do support stomping out ISIS in alliance with Russia.... and then going home. They are not the boogeyman you have imagined. Your revolution would have done didly squat about stopping World War Clinton. They'd all be pacified with free sex change operations, legal weed, free from Soros flags to burn and the extra welfare that Ds would rain upon them. It's not like they're really all that invested in peace, because they don't have to fight.<br /><br />avedis<br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-69456573747544200832017-04-01T16:00:41.802-07:002017-04-01T16:00:41.802-07:00@ Avedis: "Trump is the only one I am aware ...@ Avedis: <i>"Trump is the only one I am aware of that expresses a desire to withdraw and minimize imperialism."</i> <br /><br />Please cite where and when Trump ever said he wanted to 'minimize imperialism'? As I recall he said he wanted to "take" Iraq's oil away from them. That is not anti-imperialism! That is the exact opposite.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-62143363080870564472017-04-01T15:47:49.276-07:002017-04-01T15:47:49.276-07:00U better exclude advisors...U better exclude advisors...S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-27511511519491011532017-04-01T15:26:06.983-07:002017-04-01T15:26:06.983-07:00The other issue here is that, beyond Trump, there&...The other issue here is that, beyond Trump, there's the GOP. There's no constituency in the GOP for "less rubble, less trouble". None. Am I missing someone? Where's the drumbeating for less mayhem in pursuit of Allah-pesterers?<br /><br />At least on the blue side there IS an antiwar Left. Not the Clintonistas, no. But Our Revolution would have pushed her to be less belligerent.<br /><br />Where's the equivalent on the Right? Assume that Trump actually means what he says (a huge "not a given"); who in the Congressional GOP would back him? Sucking up to Putin? Decoupling from the "war on terror"? Where is Trumpy gonna get pals? His boys Bannon and Miller are all "clash of civilization" nutballs . He doesn't listen to Mattis or McMaster.<br /><br />So you're saying we should take Trump.on faith? What has he done - not said, DONE - to deserve that?FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-82211173939804524732017-04-01T15:13:37.533-07:002017-04-01T15:13:37.533-07:00@ Avedis: "All the social justice warrior vi...@ Avedis: <i>"All the social justice warrior virtue signaling programs in the world aint worth a hill of beans if a nuclear war breaks out."</i><br /><br />Exactly! That is the reason why I do not trust Trump with the trigger.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-21476977921084899362017-04-01T15:10:01.484-07:002017-04-01T15:10:01.484-07:00Horseshit. I have NO idea where this notion of &q...Horseshit. I have NO idea where this notion of "Trump the Pacifist" is coming from, but it doesn't take psychology to realize that it's just the usual Trump Bullshit(TM). Optempo in the ME is up, "boots" are on the ground in Syria and Iraq. The proposed budget flings cash at the DoD like a drunken Rotarian in Vegas. How the hell do you get "With Trump we have a chance" out of that?<br /><br />A chance for Dubya-on-steroids fuckups, sure. But this weird insistence the Trump is really Noam Chomsky with bad hair baffles the hell out of me. Sure, he says stuff. He claimed he had a "university", too. Are you saying we should believe THAT, too..?FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-83504428000627495582017-04-01T14:59:43.065-07:002017-04-01T14:59:43.065-07:00If you remember your pre-1989 USAREUR wargames, Ji...If you remember your pre-1989 USAREUR wargames, Jim, the "Red Storm Rising" thing almost always went nuclear within a couple of days. The assumption was that the NATO forces in Germany would be speedbumps and only the nukes would stop Ivan short of the Rhine.<br /><br />Nuts? Sure! But that was the accepted wisdom for fifty years.<br /><br />Like I said; I'm bigly in favor of an adult discussion of the current status of NATO, US foreign policy, US-EU-German relations et al.<br /><br />If you can find a single individual in this administration who can actually have that discussion I will catty your rucksack from here to the Halls of Montezuma and kiss your ass when we get there.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-81517801213870263382017-04-01T14:59:02.750-07:002017-04-01T14:59:02.750-07:00Chief, Where were those norms of western instituti...Chief, Where were those norms of western institutions during ww2? My knowledge of history says there was lots of carpet bombing of civilians. Same norms permitted millions to be machined gunned to death and blown to bits by arty in mass wave attacks across open ground in ww1 + poison gas. Same norms had Obama drone striking US citizens, wedding parties, etc. Either the norms of western civ are not what you think they are or some special set of ideals that never existed except in your mind only apply to Trump?<br /><br />I was unaware that NCO training and experience involved the equivalent of a PhD in psychology or MD/psychiatry and development of psychic powers - where you one of the "men who stare at goats", Stargate, etc?. You're a funny guy. Does NATO do the US any favors or not? Should the US use NATO as a smoke screen for imperialism or not? Trump is the only one I am aware of that expresses a desire to withdraw and minimize imperialism. Meanwhile, he wants to eliminate the barbarians in the Levant, working with Russia to accomplish that. Minimal US boots on the ground. Great! Let Russia and the Syrian Army do the heavy lifting. That's hardly imperialism of the order of Obama's little girl Nuland threatening Russia with troop movements in Poland and a bunch of big time big oil sponsored spook shit in the Ukraine, resulting in a shooting war. You gotta twist yourself into massive cognitive dissonant pretzel to convince yourself that the Dems aren't members of the same imperialists club as Bush/Cheney. With Trump we have a chance. With your preferred crowd we were heading for a major confrontation with Russia. <br /><br />All the social justice warrior virtue signaling programs in the world aint worth a hill of beans if a nuclear war breaks out.<br /><br />avedis Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-73681556596289860782017-04-01T14:41:57.144-07:002017-04-01T14:41:57.144-07:00That'd be worth reading. I'd enjoy gettin...That'd be worth reading. I'd enjoy getting more of your perspective on this.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-57988945908162608432017-04-01T14:40:04.455-07:002017-04-01T14:40:04.455-07:00The U.S. public thinks the USG spends something li...The U.S. public thinks the USG spends something like 10% of the federal budget on foreign aid and thinks that most of that goes to buy iPhones for Liberians instead of providing 155mm projos to Israelis. The mainstream American is an ass. Which, to a large degree, is why we are where we are...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-79837212877851945852017-04-01T14:36:23.921-07:002017-04-01T14:36:23.921-07:00And, above all, to claim that Trump is some sort o...And, above all, to claim that Trump is some sort of isolationist who will rein in the U.S.' imperial shenanigans is to assume facts utterly not in evidence. Trump's own rhetoric suggests his imperial ambitions include wars of extermination in the Muslim world AQ well as a withdrawal from the norms of Western institutions that would constrain his enthusiasm for weapons such as carpet bombing civilians and torture of captives.<br /><br />Sorry, man...but, again; hate for and fear of that sort of barbarism is perfectly rational.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-69514646865502852202017-04-01T14:21:02.453-07:002017-04-01T14:21:02.453-07:00Avedis; has it been that long that the misrule of ...Avedis; has it been that long that the misrule of Dubya and Darth Cheney has completely slipped down the memory hole? Am I missing some crucial Trumpian eleventh-dimension chess that distinguishes this nutty cluster of fuck from the Third Term of Dummya and his idiot minions?<br /><br />"Irrational hatred"? For a moronic narcissist with a second-grade understanding of governance and an ankle-high threshold of competence, who has shown all of us in less than a quarter of the fiscal year that his only interests are personal grifting and petty revenge?<br /><br />At least Dubya needed a couple of years before he proved to all but his mindless CHUDs that he was less competent than a bag of fucking hammers. This mook got there on Day One. Irrational? Seriously?<br /><br />Hating and fearing powerful malefactors is UTTERLY rational. It's the poor fools who still think the Tangerine Toddler has an actual plan outside of "Fuck y'all, I've got mine!" who are living in Cloud Cookooland.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-34228146374403186432017-04-01T12:49:48.893-07:002017-04-01T12:49:48.893-07:00"most of nato is former warsaw dudes, who in ..."most of nato is former warsaw dudes, who in former ww2 were nazi allies."<br />That Venn diagram would only include Romania, Hungary and Slovakia.<br /><br />"if the ballon goes up the key point is that they won't fight."<br />That's a widespread prejudice, and so far unproved. <br />I suppose the contrary; there's little to no intent to fight when there's no reason, but once a reason is presented (such as an aggression against one's community) the willingness to fight will grow rapidly. This fits extremely well to history.<br /><br />Ukraine isn't about NATO. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are the countries that are somewhat reasonably concerned about Putin's Russia.<br /><br />"maybe the germans should demand a contribution from the us for this mess"<br />I've read this point made in German discussions a couple times already.<br />The U.S: has really more endangered than protected Germany. Germany is now in a safe zone geographically. We could disarm and leave NATO and would still not be attacked.<br /><br />"if any one believes that nato would stop a determined russian assault on the old warsaw pact members then that person is delusional."<br />Ask yourself how many troops Russia could use in a surprise attack on NATO before you go on reading, please.<br />...<br />...<br />The answer is about three heavy division equivalents at most. An "army" (division) near St. Petersburg, an "army" (division) kinda near Moscow, a brigade in the Kaliningrad exclave, a brigade that guards Murmansk and a brigade equivalent or two of partially lightly mechanised airborne troops (airlifted).<br />That's not necessarily enough to defeat the Polish land forces.<br /><br /><br />Too many discussions about the Russian threat are based on gut feelings (prejudices) rather than facts.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-54623145071599271862017-04-01T10:06:25.088-07:002017-04-01T10:06:25.088-07:00Mike, A mob mentality - like McCarthyism - doesn&#...Mike, A mob mentality - like McCarthyism - doesn't start in full blown expression. It has to build momentum. Wild fires start with a random lightening strike or a carelessly tossed cigarette butt. So at this moment the media and the elected geniuses in DC are blaring the message daily that Putin is a monster and Russia the enemy. This has been going on since the US assisted coup in the Ukraine. Anyone who talks to Russians in any capacity other than threatening them, is being labeled something very close to treason. The idea of working with Russia to defeat the maniac head-choppers in the Levant is even considered wrong think and subversive. Sounds like the beginning of McCarthyism to me.<br /><br />Trump ran on a platform full of promises just like any politician does. At this point I see him as no more or less likely to break those promises than any other politician. I preferred Trump to the other candidates and, especially, Clinton, for several reasons, but his stumping for more isolationist FP was one of the big points in his favor, IMO. I see his machinations w regard to Merkel as the beginning moves to keeping the promise to pull out of NATO. I'm willing to give Trump a chance. <br /><br />avedis<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-39619850542091524752017-04-01T10:05:24.107-07:002017-04-01T10:05:24.107-07:00SO,
thanks for your clear and concise reply.
i som...SO,<br />thanks for your clear and concise reply.<br />i sometimes feel like i'm out on the flank without any mutual support.<br /><br />here we are in 2017 which is 100 years on for the US part in ww1.we got into that mess without even being in the entangling alliances. what did we get out of that war?<br />after 50 years up to 1947 we fought 2 wars in europe and a few little shoot tm ups in the pacific arena. we did this without alliances.<br />take the 50 years after 1967 which are all in my memory banks and we did pretty well without alliances.in fact we did so well that we haven't won a war. we could strech the point and say we never lost a war, but sadly this is playing with words. we may be dominant militarily, but we can't win a peace, and this is against crummy 3rd world war lords.<br />now for present day europe.<br />most of nato is former warsaw dudes, who in former ww2 were nazi allies.<br />the shakeup leads me to believe that they are purely political opportunists.<br />if the ballon goes up the key point is that they won't fight.<br />did the nazi allies in ww2 turn back the russian hordes?did france really oppose the german occupation? did France fight the japanese in indochina? did the french in 1969 cause problems in nato?<br />would we really go to war with russia over the ukraine?<br />christ, i hope not. the ukrainians are not worth the words needed to defend them, much less any actual US blood to protect them.<br />nobody asks where the money comes from if we are to have future wars.<br />do we learn from history?<br />COALITION warfare does not work.at least as we do it.<br /><br />now more on germany.<br />we want them to pay more for their defense AFTER our mideast dustups flooded them with sad immigrants. who pays that bill. maybe the germans should demand a contribution from the us for this mess.strangely nobody addresses this issue. we are dirty in this issue.<br />i predict that the germans will eventually play this card.<br />any way i ramble.<br />if any one believes that nato would stop a determined russian assault on the old warsaw pact members then that person is delusional. to stop them we'd have to light up the battle zone with tac and possibly strategic weapons.<br />now thats a less than comforting thought.theres not enough depth to the battle zone for friendly forces to organize a true defense.<br />it's the same problem that the poles had in sep/39.<br />you can't stop an assault that has several army groups attacking in a cooord matter.<br />theres not enuf terrain to set up mobile or static defences.<br />i hope you all bear with me , but i've been having these thoughts since i was a 2lt platoon leader.<br />maybe we don't need a C in C.<br />we should let a lt do the planning.<br />jim hruskarangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-87750836724139830262017-04-01T10:02:07.088-07:002017-04-01T10:02:07.088-07:00SO,
thanks for your clear and concise reply.
i som...SO,<br />thanks for your clear and concise reply.<br />i sometimes feel like i'm out on the flank without any mutual support.<br /><br />here we are in 2017 which is 100 years on for the US part in ww1.we got into that mess without even being in the entangling alliances. what did we get out of that war?<br />after 50 years up to 1947 we fought 2 wars in europe and a few little shoot tm ups in the pacific arena. we did this without alliances.<br />take the 50 years after 1967 which are all in my memory banks and we did pretty well without alliances.in fact we did so well that we haven't won a war. we could strech the point and say we never lost a war, but sadly this is playing with words. we may be dominant militarily, but we can't win a peace, and this is against crummy 3rd world war lords.<br />now for present day europe.<br />most of nato is former warsaw dudes, who in former ww2 were nazi allies.<br />the shakeup leads me to believe that they are purely political opportunists.<br />if the ballon goes up the key point is that they won't fight.<br />did the nazi allies in ww2 turn back the russian hordes?did france really oppose the german occupation? did France fight the japanese in indochina? did the french in 1969 cause problems in nato?<br />would we really go to war with russia over the ukraine?<br />christ, i hope not. the ukrainians are not worth the words needed to defend them, much less any actual US blood to protect them.<br />nobody asks where the money comes from if we are to have future wars.<br />do we learn from history?<br />COALITION warfare does not work.at least as we do it.<br /><br />now more on germany.<br />we want them to pay more for their defense AFTER our mideast dustups flooded them with sad immigrants. who pays that bill. maybe the germans should demand a contribution from the us for this mess.strangely nobody addresses this issue. we are dirty in this issue.<br />i predict that the germans will eventually play this card.<br />any way i ramble.<br />if any one believes that nato would stop a determined russian assault on the old warsaw pact members then that person is delusional. to stop them we'd have to light up the battle zone with tac and possibly strategic weapons.<br />now thats a less than comforting thought.theres not enough depth to the battle zone for friendly forces to organize a true defense.<br />it's the same problem that the poles had in sep/39.<br />you can't stop an assault that has several army groups attacking in a cooord matter.<br />theres not enuf terrain to set up mobile or static defences.<br />i hope you all bear with me , but i've been having these thoughts since i was a 2lt platoon leader.<br />maybe we don't need a C in C.<br />we should let a lt do the planning.<br />jim hruskarangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-35264420463018058512017-03-31T20:16:29.614-07:002017-03-31T20:16:29.614-07:00PS - McCarthyites? I see you have all the talkin...PS - McCarthyites? I see you have all the talking points passed down from the right wing hate media. <br /><br />Better you should read your history. McCarthy went after tens of thousands of Americans in the State Dept, in the Army, in Hollywood, in schools, in Unions, and in medicine. Hundreds were jailed. 12,000 lost their jobs. <br /><br />The investigaion into Russian meddling in our electoral process is miniscule in comparison - perhaps 1/100th of 1 percent. Only one person has lost his job, and he can well afford it after taking a half million dollars for lobbying for a foreign government. Nobody has gone to jail. McCarthy was Republican Chairman of the Senate committee that engineered this monstrosity. Where is your leftist today with the same power as McCarthy? Republicans are leading the investigations into Flynn, Manafort & Kushner - not Democrats. They (Republican politicians) are the ones that hate him.<br /><br />BTW - I'm a liberal and do not hate Trump. And I do not know of any liberal friends who hate him. We generally mock him for being a liar and a bozo - a slick bozo who makes Slick Willy look like a Saint.<br /><br />I will be happy if he closes American bases overseas. So far his actions, and the actions of his Cabinet do not lead me to believe he is going to do that. <br /><br /> mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-43089462170823850382017-03-31T19:04:05.708-07:002017-03-31T19:04:05.708-07:00Avedis - Your last sentence is correct for some. ...Avedis - Your last sentence is correct for some. But the inverse is also true:<br /><br /><i>"The irrational hatred of <b>Clinton</b> leads to all sorts of conflicting logic and other nonsense."</i> <br /><br />BTW - nice handlemikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.com