tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post7485979324537896927..comments2023-10-30T06:31:05.501-07:00Comments on MilPub: WAR = Large Explosions = Victory?FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-30520335577893344422010-04-16T14:18:33.353-07:002010-04-16T14:18:33.353-07:00jim-
What's "the truth"? A big &qu...jim-<br /><br />What's "the truth"? A big "T" Truth as in God? Or a little "t" truth as in what we can prove through observation, "empirical truth", which nobody seems to agree on . . . ?<br /><br />In truth it seems to be difficult to decide what the truth actually is, since it has to be described with language, which is always susceptible to rhetoric influenced heavily with interest . . . I don't think we can escape this quandary so easily.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-10633202507615997602010-04-16T08:02:17.162-07:002010-04-16T08:02:17.162-07:00Seydlitz,
I reckon the truth would be a better uni...Seydlitz,<br />I reckon the truth would be a better unifier than propaganda.<br />jimjim at rangerhttp://rangeragainstwar.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-6146198300918250792010-04-14T08:07:35.167-07:002010-04-14T08:07:35.167-07:00I am personally quite optimistic in the future of ...I am personally quite optimistic in the future of representative democracy. A big part of my optimism has to do with the rise of the internet and the associated changes in information flow. (it really is as big a change as the advent of the printing press).<br /><br />Today, we are seeing the fracturing of established political norms. I was enormously cheered today by the Pirate Party of Canada becoming eligible for official party status (with only a 60 day waiting period remaining)<br /><br />The Tea Party is another good example of how the status quo doesn't work.<br /><br />The times they are a changin.Aelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788190394672505925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-48366017502673760382010-04-14T07:52:29.694-07:002010-04-14T07:52:29.694-07:00Perfect example happening to me right now... contr...Perfect example happening to me right now... contract negotiations are underway, and management is pushing to dramatically increase workload while dramatically reducing compensation, and the refrain heard all around the hospital is "I can't afford to go on strike".Jim3rdOpsBNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285578994013407714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-39004037989352628472010-04-14T04:46:45.402-07:002010-04-14T04:46:45.402-07:00Andy & FDChief-
The only option open to us, s...Andy & FDChief-<br /><br />The only option open to us, since representative democracy has essentially failed (or am I wrong?) would be non-violent direct action (NVDA) Martin Luther King style, but that requires a political community morally cohesive enough and committed enough to get through the organization and direct action phases without resorting to self-defensive violence . . . <br /><br />Andy hits it on the head imo since we are a collection of atomized individuals (consumers) each responsible to our immediate families for providing economic support. I can imagine my wife's reaction if I told her that I was going back to the States to participate in NVDA . . . "Grow up little boy, you're not 20 years old any more, besides what about us?"<br /><br />Also we lack certain advantages that King had, such as a press that was sympathetic (at least in part) to his struggle, not to mention the "tension" he was able to exploit, which was the contradiction in the segregationists own value system (Christian values as opposed to blatant discrimination). I fear that it would be too easy to paint the NVDA movement as an enemy, as traitors worthy of violent repression . . . or am I wrong?seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-32186783107830545962010-04-14T04:23:14.605-07:002010-04-14T04:23:14.605-07:00Yoli-
Disagree with the quote in that it appears ...Yoli-<br /><br />Disagree with the quote in that it appears to me to be too complacent in regards to the power of "total propaganda" . . . <br /><br />"The idea that propaganda consists of lies (which make it harmless and even a little ridiculous in the eyes of the public) is still maintained by some specialists . . . But it is certainly not so. For a long time propagandists have recognized that lying must be avoided. "In propaganda, truth pays off" - this formula has been increasingly accepted. Lenin proclaimed it. And alongside Hitler's statement on lying one must place Goebbels's insistence that facts to be disseminated must be accurate. How can we explain this contradiction? It seems that in propaganda we must make a radical distinction between a fact on the one hand and intentions or interpretations on the other; in brief, between the material and the moral elements. The truth that pays off is in the realm of facts. The necessary falsehoods, which also pay off are in the realm of intentions and interpretations. This is a fundamental rule for propaganda analysis."<br /><br />Jacques Ellul; "Propaganda", p 53.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-24366146925790253652010-04-13T21:23:38.107-07:002010-04-13T21:23:38.107-07:00Andy: The main reason I'm not hurling cobblest...Andy: The main reason I'm not hurling cobblestones at the local gendarmie is that I have lost my faith that populist pressure can change the direction of what's going on inside the Beltway. I have, in effect, accepted that I am a subject in all but name. Sad, but there you are.<br /><br />And, you're quite right, a huge part of this is having JUST ENOUGH to lose; neither poor enough to be free of the fear of losing what I have nor wealthy enough to prevent that loss. The proliferation of us wage-slaves has played an huge, and largely unremarked, role in the desuetude of our Republic. We are just beholden to too many to act without fear and without remorse.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-21598285847826036072010-04-13T21:18:43.012-07:002010-04-13T21:18:43.012-07:00Yoli: Yep. The sad part is that we can't even ...Yoli: Yep. The sad part is that we can't even seem to get that close to either; every time we seem to try and wrap ourselves in the Flag of Freedom we shoot up another damn bus or something. We're like the Wile E. Coyote of Great Powers that way. Sheesh.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-55300888149897897342010-04-13T18:24:38.940-07:002010-04-13T18:24:38.940-07:00"Propaganda is that branch of the art of lyin..."Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies."<br /> <br />Frances CornfordYolihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06068063513978782703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-75522471444393411802010-04-13T16:49:17.541-07:002010-04-13T16:49:17.541-07:00This has turned out to be a very nice thread. Lot...This has turned out to be a very nice thread. Lots of interesting and well-presented comments.<br /><br />A few points-<br /><br />Jay, you weren't the only inspiration for this thread, and it was more the comments from military bloggers that I characterize with my four points introduced on this thread, but take a look again at your own points 1-3 and 5 from your first post.<br /><br />I thought about your question as to why Hitler declared war on the US. The best explanation I've come across is presented in Howard K. Smith's "Last Train from Berlin" . . . not much of an answer maybe, but a great book.<br /><br />Publius-<br /><br />Yes, 1984, but especially in regards to what a beating the language has taken. Words have lost their meanings and complex concepts have become simplistic labels. Everything becomes corrupted by narrow interest.<br /><br />jim-<br /><br />Some say that propaganda is necessary in the modern world, since people don't really have any belief systems that unite whole communities or rather societies any more. How else is a political authority to hold things together?<br /><br />Andy-<br /><br />Agree as to politics being what keeps us involved in the "Long War" which is of course very Clausewitzian since both the original policy and the current politics translate to "Politik".<br /><br />Jim-<br /><br />"Robocop" Agree.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-9115294517342565072010-04-13T12:56:34.585-07:002010-04-13T12:56:34.585-07:00Andy: You make my point. The United States that f...Andy: You make my point. The United States that foisted itself and it's National Geographic Society on the Philippines was the one that believed that "America is Good", who swallowed the whole patriotic line hook, line and sinker. That attitude, that if our government did it it must be right, lasted up until the Vietnam period. So you might say that, looking at U.S. history, we're back in the default setting for the U.S. public - dumb, credulous and inert.<br /><br />I've said before - this entire Middle Eastern/central Asian nonsense is really a minor episode militarily and economically...IF we learn from it. If we persist in chasing Afridis where they run for decades, I suspect that we will find ourselves in a much worse place indeed.<br /><br />As for taxes...we ended up paying something like 20%, but much of that because my wife is a "private contractor" and gets slammed for FICA and the other non-income-tax items like unemployment insurance...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-26099659004419410122010-04-13T12:25:30.605-07:002010-04-13T12:25:30.605-07:00Say Andy, RE Taxes:
A bunch of Teabuggery personn...Say Andy, RE Taxes:<br /><br />A bunch of Teabuggery personnel assembled recently, Bastille style, in DC (hat tip to Snarkmeister Penguin). A sampling of this lot (questioned by David Frum's interns), gave irrefutable proof of their terminal witlessness. On the subject of taxes, a majority believed "Their" taxes had gone up since the beer hall putsch of the Magical Negro. <br /><br />Primo, I don't think there were any top 5% earners in that bunch, therefore tax reductions were aimed at their (taxable income) cohort. <br /><br />Secundo, A lot of W's taxes for the wealthy have yet to expire. Hell, the Kenyan Griot will probably magically turn that into another socialist giveaway that they will not perceive receiving.fasteddieznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-64319466772316063392010-04-13T10:13:02.869-07:002010-04-13T10:13:02.869-07:00We really need some "death panels", actu...We really need some "death panels", actually. Not in the sense of deciding to off people, but in the sense of not keeping vented 90 year olds with severe dementia and multiple system failures on indefinate life support... as an exampleJim3rdOpsBNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285578994013407714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-58823035121525246222010-04-13T09:02:46.643-07:002010-04-13T09:02:46.643-07:00Al,
I think we'd be around 10% too were it no...Al,<br /><br />I think we'd be around 10% too were it not for the credits we get from our two kids which cut $3600 directly from what we owe. Our third is due in two weeks so I guess I will need to reduce withholding again for next year. We also use the standard deduction since we don't own a house anymore.<br /><br />There's been a spate of articles recently on how about 47% of Americans effectively pay little to no income tax. That I'm just about in that group as someone with an upper-middle income is just plain wrong, even accounting for the economic hit we took last year.<br /><br />That's also a good point about the death panels - time to find us a nice island of our own to keep the death panel police from confiscating our organs! ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-3266858215971305862010-04-13T09:02:43.694-07:002010-04-13T09:02:43.694-07:00Publius,
The 1984 reference seems way too accurat...Publius,<br /><br />The 1984 reference seems way too accurate. <br /><br />I have also felt for a long time that we were morphing into the sciety envisioned in Robocop.Jim3rdOpsBNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285578994013407714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-30258308297835411152010-04-13T08:32:32.368-07:002010-04-13T08:32:32.368-07:00To continue off topic. Our gross was about 10% hi...To continue off topic. Our gross was about 10% higher than yours, and our effective tax rate was 10.5%. Of course, living overseas, we have no allowable deductions and thus do the standard one.<br /><br />However, Andy, when we appear before the Obamacare "Death Panels" next year, you and the wife are going to be in big trouble, while the two of us will be categorized as productive, contributing citizens. ;-0Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-20915308897559905272010-04-13T08:26:20.065-07:002010-04-13T08:26:20.065-07:00Seydlitz,
Should the US even be involved in propag...Seydlitz,<br />Should the US even be involved in propaganda?<br />Whatever happened to truth?<br />Nothing but the truth.<br />Propaganda is not a word that i associate with democratic action.<br />Nice post.<br />jimjim at rangerhttp://rangeragainstwar.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-14375299694624370682010-04-13T07:06:32.654-07:002010-04-13T07:06:32.654-07:00Hey all,
Off topic here, but I just finished my ...Hey all, <br /><br />Off topic here, but I just finished my taxes and would like to share. I use Turbotax which helpfully gives you some statistics for the current and previous 5 years. Our <em>effective</em> tax rate (married filing jointly) this year for federal income taxes: 0.21%. Not-a-typo. Our average over the last five years: 3.4%. Our gross income was $78k. Our effective tax rate for this year is much lower than the "whopping" 4-5% we usually pay mainly because we lost a lot of money selling our house and we got some additional tax credits thanks to the stimulus package. Crazy way to run a country and it's also an illustrative example of just how meaningless marginal tax rates are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-76012257125778986112010-04-13T06:29:51.854-07:002010-04-13T06:29:51.854-07:00If a large number of states accept "The Castl...If a large number of states accept "The Castle Doctrine" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine_in_the_United_States), either through case law or specific legislation, is it not culturally understandable that our foreign adventures might involve violence based upon "perceived threat", however slight? In most of those states, deadly force is justified not just to protect life and limb, but property as well. <br /><br />Jan-<br /><br />In your State of NC, the law states:<br /><br /><i>A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry......if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.</i><br /><br />Are any of the "barbaric" acts of our service members far out of line with this?<br /><br />We are a nation born by an act of violence, and that tendency to justify violence to protect property, not just life and limb, surely influences our behavior in foreign policy implementation.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-71159405337422879882010-04-12T22:30:25.576-07:002010-04-12T22:30:25.576-07:00Seydlitz,
It's as I surmised after the coffee...Seydlitz,<br /><br />It's as I surmised after the coffee finally settled in... you were laying out how things are in our cotton-candy circus of unreality, and not the way you think they should be.<br /><br />Jay, so where do you draw the line? From your comments one might conclude that anything an American soldier does in a war zone is solely the responsibility of those who sent him/her there. Going to have to vacate a lot of sentences from Nuremburg if that becomes the basis for judgment.Jim3rdOpsBNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285578994013407714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-60404917921819117932010-04-12T20:37:01.597-07:002010-04-12T20:37:01.597-07:00Chief (cont):
For all you claim that "the Wi...Chief (cont):<br /><br /><em>For all you claim that "the Wikileaks video is kicking the crap out of the government and the military..." - is it really? Where are the Bishkek-style street riots? Where is the unruly mob of legislators demanding the truth, the prosecutions? Where are Dubya and Darth Cheney (hell, where were Kissinger and Nixon) in leg irons?</em><br /><br />Because Americans, just like through most of our history, are not invested in these interventions. Most Americans are trying to scrape out a living and don't really care <strong><em>enough</em></strong> about some foreign war that doesn't much affect them to take to the streets. Why should they take to the streets, even those who ostensibly believe these wars are criminal enterprises? With the exception of a handful of people like Charles, most of those in the strong anti-war segment of the population are not willing to do much more than spend an afternoon or two a year marching, much less make real sacrifices. Why is that?<br /><br />Also, why, might I ask, aren't you in the street Bishkek-style? Maybe it's because you've got a great family that needs your support and you can't piss your job away and spend your time organizing? Well, I'm in that same boat and it seems to me that pretty much everyone else here is too, which probably explains why we spend so much time here. Until something rises to the level that one is willing to sacrifice, then it's just so much hot air, no?<br /><br /><em>We should know better now, we should be more intolerant of the lies and spin now that we know that it's done, who does it, and why….And yet we don't, and we're not.</em><br /><br />Maybe this is where we really disagree. I don’t think people change much despite changes in circumstance over time. I think we’re about 99% the same people we were 100 or 500 years ago. Plus "knowing better" doesn’t necessarily mean people will change their ways.<br /><br />Seydlitz,<br /><br />I think you’re right about messaging that doesn’t fit reality. But again, that much isn’t new. Rare is the policy that doesn’t need spinning by proponents. I also think the messaging-reality disconnect fits into my theory that these wars are driven by domestic politics and little else. It seems to me that accounts for both the lack of reality and the messaging.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-82551855596596944512010-04-12T20:31:01.617-07:002010-04-12T20:31:01.617-07:00Sven,
I guess I did misinterpret your comments - ...Sven,<br /><br />I guess I did misinterpret your comments - my apologies.<br /><br />Chief,<br /><br /><em>Prior to the 1970's the Pretty Picture was the default mode for both the government and the public.</em><br /><br />Well I, for one, would like to see some evidence for that because that's not what I remember of history at all. I recently read, for example, <a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/216139" rel="nofollow">an article</a> on National Geographic's coverage of the Philippine insurrection which provided some insight into media coverage and the political "spin" of that war which are not dissimilar to what we see with OIF. Justifications for the US presence changed over time. A taste:<br /><br /><em>As "imperialism" became transformed into "development," problems such as efficient resource utilization and provision of infrastructure could safely be regarded as scientific, not political or commercial, matters. What emerged was a sanitized, paternalist version of imperialism that was consistent with the Progressive Era's fixation with the rational management of society by an enlightened bureaucracy of experts. Meanwhile, the installation of a U.S.-patterned educational system in the Philippines ensured that future generations would be inculcated with liberal American values and, with those, a desire to produce and consume within a society newly oriented toward trade in a world market. The United States, in effect, exchanged the prospect of direct, short-term plunder of resources and labor for the longer-term, indirect promise of sustained commerce with the Philippines as a prospering and self-governing nation. That this vision was not exactly filled is another story....</em><br /><br />That change in vision and ideology was caused by the anti-imperialist movement. Some more:<br /><br /><em>American geographers, whether self-styled or professional, played no small role in the transformation of ideology with respect to the Philippines. They participated directly, as federal-agency scientists and as writers for the National Geographic Magazine, and indirectly, as members and supporters of the NGS. They vigorously promoted both the practice of geography and the U.S. economic enterprise in the Philippines, with serious consequences that were ultimately borne by the Filipino people. Because the NGS rested heavily on its "status as a scientific society and the belief in science as an objective quest for pure information about the world," it could effectively proffer an essentially imperialist agenda under the guise of scientific progress and moral responsibility. Ultimately, the National Geographic lent credence to a view of the world - and America's role within it - that readers could unquestioningly accept as the truth, thereby permitting the ethical assumptions that were so thoroughly embedded within it to remain unchallenged.</em><br /><br />Sound kinda familiar? That’s just a taste, I wish I could quote more (email me and I can send you the whole thing). Point being, the same sorts of lies, obfuscations and spin we see today in order to justify continued military intervention or are nothing new....<br /><br />(cont)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-14821542747796798312010-04-12T19:23:59.892-07:002010-04-12T19:23:59.892-07:00I like your post, Seydlitz.
Recall Orwell's &...I like your post, Seydlitz.<br /><br />Recall Orwell's "1984"? Sure. We all do. But I'm thinking here about the movie version because of the images on Winston Smith's (and everybody else's) TV, which is always tuned to the single Oceania state channel. The TV provides the background noise, and what I recall most is how the war between Oceania and the aggressor IS the background noise, e.g., "in today's news our brave soldiers won another victory....." Oceania is a totalitarian state where constant war engaged in by anonymous brave soldiers is the very foundation of the state as well as the ruler's source of legitimacy. <br /><br />As I think about our life in the United States in 2010, I find myself thinking of 1984. I also find myself viewing our incessant wars as just that: background noise, all intended to convince the citizenry that the government has some sort of purpose. How else would one view the "Long War"? Most of us don't have any personal skin in the game—shit, we don't even pay for it—but we're expected to "support" our government. <br /><br />War is now all that unifies us as a nation. The cupboard is bare; our leaders are bereft of constructive ideas, but war is always there as a tried-and-true means of retaining power. It was in Big Brother's handbook and it's been in the handbook of every petty dictator. Samuel Johnson: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." <br /><br />Way back when, those of us of the Vietnam graduate classes used to jokingly say, "Our business is war and business is good." We didn't know how right we were.Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189226852559033120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-12169446894358971452010-04-12T18:27:25.811-07:002010-04-12T18:27:25.811-07:00I must write even worse than I thought I did, or p...I must write even worse than I thought I did, or perhaps, I just don't read well.<br /><br />I'm not much of a war lover. It's a hideous and expensive national pastime.<br /><br />I think the men and women who sent our troops into Iraq, and Afghanistan for that matter, are much more the enemy than the locals. <br /><br />I do take strong exception to negative criticism of the rank and file soldier and marine when the stupidity, impaired judgment, and immorality is the bailiwick of his superiors and leaders.<br /><br />I may be agreeing with you people, it's hard to tell. "Regular fighting troops" should not be put astraddle the political fence. I know they are put there but that doesn't make it right.<br /><br />It is easier and easier to convince Americans that war is necessary as "war" has become an everyday banality does not affect everyone's <br />children, husbands, and brothers.<br /><br />BTW, why did Germany declare war on the U.S.? If you answer the question, try to do it in short words and without scholarly references.<br /><br />Jay in N.C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-9468690075680488012010-04-12T15:55:55.273-07:002010-04-12T15:55:55.273-07:00And, like the Fairy Queen in the pantomime, here&#...And, like the Fairy Queen in the pantomime, here's the latest moron-grade fuckup to point out the idiocy of sending regular troops to fight in internal civil war:<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/world/asia/13afghan.html?src=twt&twt=nytimes<br /><br />Was this a situation that was, in all liklihood, confusing, frightening and generally fucked up for the U.S. element that shot up this bus? Undoubtedly. Does this make it any "better"?<br /><br />Hell, no.<br /><br />This makes us look just like we're propagandized by the Talibs; a bunch of trigger-happy idiots who can't tell a bus full of locals from a bad guy trying to car-bomb us, and, most importantly - not caring. Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out, is what this looks like.<br /><br />Stupid. Critical mass level stupid. WTF, people!?!FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.com