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I am not surprised. As I noted, othe...Clausewitz-<br /><br />I am not surprised. As I noted, other countries put the well being of all as a state mandate. When Obama began proposing his health care overhaul, my Greek neighbors were shocked to learn that many US health insurance companies will not cover any illness or injury suffered before the person was covered by that company, nor was there National Health facilities to care for such people.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-38590034419309623202011-11-21T14:09:43.388-08:002011-11-21T14:09:43.388-08:00@Aviator
the very first article of Germany's c...@Aviator<br />the very first article of Germany's constitution not only declares human dignity to be inviolate, but that upholding it should be the first and foremost goal of any activity of the State. From that article, a whole lot of other concepts are deducted, including the article stating that property entails responsibility and that its use should at the same time serve the public weal- That (and several other concepts also deducted from Article 1) are ideas I've often found to be considered almost staggring heresy by some of the people I discussed it with in the USClausewitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-25460577906404506452011-11-20T16:13:13.280-08:002011-11-20T16:13:13.280-08:00True, but who is to tell the difference? To answe...True, but who is to tell the difference? To answer that question you have to consider the relations of power . . .seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-59701084912015513882011-11-20T13:58:07.979-08:002011-11-20T13:58:07.979-08:00seydlitz-
Sorry if I gave the impression that I t...seydlitz-<br /><br />Sorry if I gave the impression that I think this sovereignty of the individual over the collective well being, slavery, etc is an American invention. What I meant was simply that it was clearly incorporated in the "birthing document" of our country, and is so noticeably lacking in that of France or Canada, for example, both of which have radically different concepts of what basic "rights", to include health care, for example, a citizen should be afforded as well as the general population's responsibility to ensure those rights. We hold that the citizen has the right to pursue his/her basic well being, but no responsibility to ensure same for his fellow citizen.<br /><br />Trust me, I am not too thrilled about a "moral" legal code, as I am not sure that every sect's view of morality is the same. I do think that the overwhelming majority of western civilization rejects slavery as immoral. Does that give license to legally declare a raft of other things immoral? Not unless there is the same near unanimity. There is a difference between the imposition of will and an expression of the general will.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-13800116765147619022011-11-20T04:31:52.952-08:002011-11-20T04:31:52.952-08:00Al-
Thank you for your well-reasoned and coherent...Al-<br /><br />Thank you for your well-reasoned and coherent response. You are both a gentleman and a scholar.<br /><br />Still, I think you miss the actual nature of what has happened imo.<br /><br />To get to what I'm talking about let's start with a notion that you mention indirectly. That being that each "man as lord of his own castle" which is essentially what you're talking about is common in the Anglo-Saxon world and shared by the Dutch and Germans as well. This translated into their attitudes towards business and commerce, the original "spirit of capitalism" if you will. <br /><br />Slavery had existed for a long time before 1776 and even exists today although we are loath to admit it. It is simply the final - if radical - step in the human tendency to dominate other humans. In the old South slaves were property and thus added to the wealth of the household and thus fitted within the concept of "castle", and what government had a right to intervene there?<br /><br />From this perspective, with the abolition movement lobbing for the end of slavery and enlisting the power of the state to intervene and actually define the private sphere, to regulate if you will what a person could have in their "castle" was something quite radical. I would add that this concern did not extend to Northern factory owners and the plight of the industrial workers of the time, although government intervention there also occurred eventually. <br /><br />The British who abolished slavery in 1807 went about it in a much different way. Bristol, the second port of England owed much of its prosperity to the slave trade with that wealth in turn financing the first phase of the industrial revolution there. That is Britain was able to phase it out and replace the odious practice with something else without encountering disruption, as in going on to trade opium for tea in China, but that's another story.<br /><br />So was the radical move to gain political influence and make the abolition of slavery government policy in the long-term best interests of the country? Did it not in fact start a dangerous precedent which we were never even aware of, that hopelessly mixing populist political power with "morality" which would then be manipulated by hidden and powerful interests? How many examples have we of that in US history since 1861? I think here we see the real jump-off point, which I wasn't aware of until you mentioned that man from Mississippi . . .seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-61253221757227972922011-11-19T12:52:43.301-08:002011-11-19T12:52:43.301-08:00It's getting ugly out there. A Marine, vetera...It's getting ugly out there. A Marine, veteran of the Iraq action, with video:<br /><br />http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/18/occupy-oakland-police-beating-veteran?newsfeed=true<br /><br />UC Davis:<br /><br />http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2011/11/19/uc-davis-chancellor-called-to-resign-after-police-pepper-spray-students/<br /><br />bbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-12307418223641174192011-11-19T11:34:21.439-08:002011-11-19T11:34:21.439-08:00A few comments:
1) When comparing OWS vs other m...A few comments:<br /><br />1) When comparing OWS vs other movements, remember history. OWS has been around for two months. The Civil Rights movement was around for a 80-odd years after the Civil War, and lost ground more often than not.<br /><br />2) OWS giving a specific list of 'demands' won't help; the MSM would denounce most of them, and the establishment would happily 'negotiate' over the rest - forever. While the MSM mocked those demands, and 'think tank' prosties would explain about how bad [for the elites] they were.<br /><br />3) The more concentrated the leadership is, the easier it is to decapitate the movement. We've seen phase I (MSM mocks), and phase II (initial crackdown, once the movement was being an irritant). By Phase III or IV the authorities will be cracking down on the leadership - and now that means the full weight of anti-'terror' law, and every civil BS they can think of, as well as simple beatings and crippling. Diffuse leadership is simply harder to take out, and the initial movement really doesn't need it right now - their goal is to speak up and start a larger set of people in action.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-33322437949550473062011-11-19T02:53:36.444-08:002011-11-19T02:53:36.444-08:00seydlitz-
We are actually on the same sheet of mu...seydlitz-<br /><br />We are actually on the same sheet of music. I grew up in a close knit community, where people generally cared about and for each other. However, that sense of fraternity did not go very far beyond the borders of the town. We held the basic values you describe.<br /><br /><br />While the US definitely has had senses of community in the past, the underlying principals were not so. The whole concept of "states rights", from day one, was to allow the states to each be vastly different cultures - vastly different ideas of individual rights. Thus, while a Mississippian could own another human being, a New Yorker could not - "you can have it your way as long as I can have it my way". From such roots, it's difficult to have a real notion of a citizen's "rights". Fast forward to today and same sex marriage, for example. Or that the people of Texas are fine with 27% of the population being without any form of health insurance, while Massachusetts provides virtually universal coverage. The very fact that there is a battle royal over what are the rights granted to a "citizen" vary from state to state tells us a lot. In short, what "rights" does American citizenship really provide?<br /><br />Now, as a general trend, your comment about what I call American "Neo-Christianity" is a very good insight into a major cultural movement. When I was a youngster, we were taught that the religious goal was to make our lives and ourselves pleasing to God. Today's message is that God want to be pleasing to us. Yes, a shift from a theocentric religion to an egocentric one.<br /><br />The framework hasn't changed. What we are seeing is a more thorough manifestation of the societally flawed (in my view) initial framework. "Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness" are a far cry from "Peace, Order and Good Government" or "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity". We have never formally elevated the common well being above the individual's desires.<br /><br />John McCain feels I should be willing to pay another $200 a year for TRICARE for Life. My Greek pharmacist thinks it's an outrage that a combat veteran retiring after 35 years service should have to pay some $110/ month (current TFL cost incorporating deductible) for just 75% coverage on medications. When I told him that pharma coverage is an "option at more cost" in Medicare, he was shocked. Totally different cultures. Where Yanks are thankful to have insurance coverage, many others believe their fellow citizen deserves health care, period.<br /><br />Similarly, the GOP's obsession with wealth being good because it creates jobs. However, when all is said and done, the jobs are merely a byproduct of that wealth, and currently, increasing wealth is creating few jobs. So, the GOP is that if we allow enough people to serve themselves enough and enrich themselves enough, that should create jobs. If one can find jobs as a public imperative in such logic, please illumine me.<br /><br />You are expressing yourself clearly, seydlitz. However, what we are seeing today is in no way antithetical to the content and expressed intent of our nation's founding document. To put it in cynically judgmental terms, coming out of the Great Depression, your teachers and family just had a warped view of the "American Dream". From Day One, it was never about "Us", as in me and all my neighbors, it was about a collective bunch of "Me's". And it ain't gonna get prettier until something drastic happens to put us all in the same boat together.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-89166305480364693212011-11-18T14:23:32.487-08:002011-11-18T14:23:32.487-08:00Al-
I don't know what more to say. It's ...Al-<br /><br />I don't know what more to say. It's like I'm talking about a different world. I suppose my problem was that I not only grew up in a religious household, but had a high regard for older people. I always took time to listen to what the old folks had to say and respected it. As in the generation that fought the First World War or thereabouts. I suspect it has also something to do with having been educated by Southern matrons who had started teaching in the 1920s/30s. The sense of community was strong, something that is hard to conceptualize today perhaps. <br /><br />Racism? Sure, and it still exists today and probably always will, but I can still appreciate the solid values of those who taught me and helped make me what I am today. I would add that it was my generation in the South that rejected racism and refused to carry on the old ways, even if we had little choice in the matter. <br /><br />That the Constitution had been written by a bunch of slaveholders or money-grubbing Northern merchants didn't really enter in to it. I only became aware of those cynical elements much later . . . I never learned it in school and nobody talked like that growing up, so count me as distinctly unenlightened . . .<br /><br />Once again I really think it comes down to values. When I was a kid, and it was a long time ago I suppose, and perhaps on a different planet, people held values strongly because they were the way that people were expected to live. <br /><br />Today, that totally abused concept is all about attitudes that make us feel good about our selves and especially superior to others, as in "my values are better than yours" . . . <br /><br />Same with religion. Today it's all about "Jesus saved ME!", whereas before it was about being a Christian might make a difference in the afterlife, but with the understanding that in the end you might be found to have been totally lacking in virtue from God's perspective when standing before Him at the last judgement. It wasn't a sure deal as today, but more a hope and a long road of doubt and self questioning . . . which again I see little of today.<br /><br />In short I don't really think you understand what I'm talking about. Perhaps it's just me not expressing myself clearly . . .seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-81009252366697312502011-11-18T13:05:22.731-08:002011-11-18T13:05:22.731-08:00Aviator:
One problem is we don't know what we...Aviator:<br /><br /><b>One problem is we don't know what we really want our social contract vis a vis the government to accomplish.</b><br /><br />Sure we do. Cut insurance benefits so we won't have to cut our military capability to wage wars willy-nilly over the globe, and to keep the profit in war profiteering going strong.<br /><br />http://militaryadvantage.military.com/2011/10/mccain-okay-with-cutting-military-benefits/<br /><br /><i><br />According to the Associated Press, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) sent a letter to the bipartisan budget supercommittee in which he indicated he is open to cost-saving steps in military benefits.<br /><br />The AP reports that McCain supports President Obama’s proposal to start charging older military retirees a $200 annual enrollment fee for TRICARE for Life. In addition, McCain urged the supercommittee to consider restricting working-age military retirees and their dependents from enrolling in TRICARE Prime. McCain pointed out that the Congressional Budget Office has estimated that such a move would save $111 billion over 10 years.<br /><br />McCain also said he supports the administration’s proposal for a commission to review possible changes to the 20 year military retirement system and the current military pay and compensation model.</i><br /><br />Stephen Colbert explains why all this is necessary:<br /><br />http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/402700/november-17-2011/the-word---the-1-<br /><br />bbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-11504318392986833072011-11-18T10:55:42.795-08:002011-11-18T10:55:42.795-08:00FDR let had the government putting people to work,...FDR let had the government putting people to work, not paying for-profit businesses to do the government's job. It is not the taxpayer's (as in government) job to let private companies make a profit doing governmental functions. There's a fine line, but there is a line. I'm sure Dick Cheney was not pleased when Secty Gates determined that contracting our DFAS pay functions cost more than having civil servants do it. Retiree pay activities alone cost over $5 million more via the contract, and as Gates commented, the contractors were not free to operate outside the scope of the contract without negotiating increased costs, even when the mission required it.<br /><br />One problem is we don't know what we really want our social contract vis a vis the government to accomplish. I know I sound like a broken record, but look at health care. I have not seen what level of health care - access and services - we wish to provide to the total population. Rather, we talk about insurance - pumping money through middle men to providers, while market forces set the cost. And, under the current stumbling attempt to "fix" health care, there will still be an estimated 10 - 15 million Americans without insurance coverage, and 10's of millions more with only "catastrophic coverage". So will we actually reduce the number of people with limited or no access to basic care? Will we be changing the actual delivery of care to the population?<br /><br />"The Market" will not deliver universally to the general populace. "The Market" is Darwinian. It's been that way in the US since 1776, with a few exceptional periods of grave circumstances, such as the 30's. Until we define what living in America means, what basic human services are our goal and commit to those goals, nothing will improve.<br /><br />IAGBP (It Ain't Gonna Be Pretty)Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-1308938302429868902011-11-18T10:02:41.831-08:002011-11-18T10:02:41.831-08:00(con't from above)
3. And with that, take a ...(con't from above)<br /><br />3. And with that, take a hard look at what we're doing with our national infrastructure. We're living on legacies, man. Our electric grid is a nightmare, and I've done a damn sight of power-connection (pipeline and transmission tower) geotechnical work and seen it up close. That's another "not pretty". We need to get to work on that, and soon.<br /><br />4. 86 the filibuster. When your "upper house" requires a supermajority to do ANYthing you're well on your way to banana republicanism just because any sort of compromise becomes impossible.<br /><br />5. About 90% of the national Democrats just need to be gassed like sick chickens. I can't decide whether they're corrupt, stupid, spineless, or a combination of the three. But I can think of only a handful - our junior Senator Jeff Merkeley is one - who have any actual idea of what a "liberal" is supposed to stand for and actually stands for it. I have no idea what to do to replace them, but most of the current mess needs to get swept into the dustbin of history<br /><br />6. And, frankly, what will help is the GOP taking the damn Limbaugh Faction (or whatever you want to call the "no taxes, ever") faction out behind the house and putting a bullet in its head. It's one thing to believe in small government and low taxes as philosophy. When you start treating it as religion you've stopped being a political party and become a damn cult.<br /><br />But what's really frustrating to me is that a lot of the problems we're seeing aren't rocket science. We KNOW how to deal with liquidity traps and failures of private demand; government becomes the employer of last resort, people get paid, start spending, private companies start selling and hiring, and the economy begins to recover. We're not CHOOSING to do this, and that's bizarre.<br /><br />Likewise we KNOW what prudent governance should do; run surpluses in good economic peacetimes so it can afford to go into debt in depression and war. And yet somehow the loyal Bushies threw that baby out the window and Cheney told us deficits didn't matter...until they did.<br /><br />Likewise we KNOW how to deal with loss of domestic employment to overseas competition; you raise your tariffs. But we've been sold the notion that the world is flat, and so we don't even try.<br /><br />Anyway - I have to go to work. Hope I've thrown out enough ideas to keep the shouting going on for a while.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.com