tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post1181425825789664405..comments2023-10-30T06:31:05.501-07:00Comments on MilPub: The Six Battles of KarbalaFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-13391707514769324792016-11-27T13:41:53.225-08:002016-11-27T13:41:53.225-08:00I think that it's more a case of terminal shor...I think that it's more a case of terminal short-sightedness; we aren't good at thinking "long term" or developing the sorts of deep foreign experience that good empires need to manage their relationships with both enemies and clients. We do "short term"; that's the American Way - solve the immediate problem and if that "solution" leads to problems down the road, well...hell, I'll be out of office by then so who gives a shit?<br /><br />Iraq is a perfect example. Anyone who'd spent any sort of time paying attention knew that 1) it was essentially a "failed state" held together by a ruthless Tikriti kleptocracy, and that if you knocked off the Saddam regime that a) the "country" would effectively devolve into three major sectarian divisions and b) the probability of any sort of effective rule outside of an openly brutal military autocracy was somewhere between unlikely and "fucking impossible", and 2) any sort of realistic alternative - if even possible - would take decades and mountains of blood and treasure.<br /><br />Now the Shia have decided to become the new Saddam, complete with their own "fedayeen Saddam" in the form of the Shiite militias. Yeah, duh. That was pretty much written in stone from the moment the first scouts crossed the LD in 2003.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-1737624221300269342016-11-26T20:44:45.774-08:002016-11-26T20:44:45.774-08:00FDChief -
We do have a knack for choosing the wro...FDChief -<br /><br />We do have a knack for choosing the wrong friends and allies and shooting ourselves in the foot.<br /><br />Turkey, a NATO country, is now a jihadi haven and (once again) a hotbed of ethnic cleansing.<br /><br />Saudi Arabia, the exporter of Wahabbism.<br /><br />Iraq's parliament has just passed the Hashd Law, which formalizes the Shia militias as part of Iraqi security structure. Supposedly they will be separate from the Army and report directly to the PM. An Iraqi IRGC or Basiji perhaps? Or worse the brown and black shirted paramilitaries of Europe back 80 plus years ago? mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-64318377506407071012016-11-26T18:33:00.102-08:002016-11-26T18:33:00.102-08:00Worth remembering that it is our shame that we fir...Worth remembering that it is our shame that we first used these jihadis for our own geopolitical ends in Afghanistan, then ignored them once the Soviets were defeated, then smashed the secular regimes that helped hold them in check, such as Saddam's.<br /><br />The salafis are a symptom rather than the disease; a symptom of the unresolved schism in Islam between the modernists and the medievalists, and our inability or unwillingness to distinguish between the two has helped them immensely.<br /><br />Mind you, I don't expect that to change; it didn't in eight years of Obama, who is an order of magnitude smarter and more geopolitically clever than the next President and his coterie of crusaders, boobs, and grifters...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-25302822073985402772016-11-26T10:13:40.154-08:002016-11-26T10:13:40.154-08:00125 dead at Hilla vs the 80 initially reported.125 dead at Hilla vs the 80 initially reported.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-25466242488380870842016-11-24T11:47:09.353-08:002016-11-24T11:47:09.353-08:00The Reuters link: http://www.reuters.com/article/...The Reuters link: http://www.reuters.com/article/mideast-crisis-iraq-blast-idUSKCN0W80EDmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-58148939618234445872016-11-24T11:41:42.534-08:002016-11-24T11:41:42.534-08:00Looks like the Salafis finally got a shot in at Ar...Looks like the Salafis finally got a shot in at Arba'een with a truck bomb near Hilla. They killed 80 pilgrims on their way home from Karbala. <br /><br />http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/241120163 <br /><br />A reminder to never let your guard down against these murderers.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-11017927687627406192016-11-22T19:42:57.865-08:002016-11-22T19:42:57.865-08:00I think the difference is in scale. Industrial-ag...I think the difference is in scale. Industrial-age warfare is fought on an immense scale, largely because of industrial-age logistics. Armies in the hundreds of thousands can be supported in the field for extended periods of time. The pre-moderns just couldn't do that.<br /><br />So even with things like telegraphs and radios and television and portable cameras and reporters all over the place and literate soldiers and officers and politicians writing about their own and others' deeds, words, and thoughts you end up getting a very fragmented view of any particular part of these massive wars.<br /><br />But...in general, you get a pretty good "big picture" of what happened. Order logs and maps and after-action reports and casualty lists and logistical records can be layered on top of war diaries and letters and newspaper reports to get a fairly-decent "bird's-eye-view" of everything from company-size engagements on up to ginormous army-group-size tussles.<br /><br />The small stuff, squads and platoons? Not so much. But even a lot of the contradictory reports can be reconciled by taking onto account points-of-view and report bias. I'd argue that for a LOT of modern-era (I'm calling this pretty much anything post-1850ish) events we can reconstruct the actual happenings pretty well simply because we have so MANY primary sources.<br /><br />The problem with pre-modern era warfare is that all that "stuff" just...doesn't exist. If you're lucky you can find a scattering of individual accounts or a half-dozen secondary reports of the event. Once you get much earlier than the printing press, so pre-1500s or so, you're even worse off because of the problem with manuscript copyists. That and in a LOT of traditions the old "If the story contradicts the facts, print the story" thing holds true...so you have to sort out the things that were just plain made up because they were such a terrific addition to the story...<br /><br />Great example; Pope Urban II's famous speech at the Council of Clermont, November 27, 1095.<br /><br />This speech is pretty much generally accepted as the "official" start of European crusading. We know that he gave it, we know that the Europeans responded...but...supposedly the great battle cry of the Western Crusaders was first uttered on this day; <i>Deus vult!"</i> - "God wills it!" - made the welkin ring and was picked up and carried all the way to and over the walls of Jerusalem four years later. Right?<br /><br />Or...maybe not. We have five versions of this pep talk. First of all, all of them were written at least four years later, after the subsequent fall of Jerusalem to the First Crusade, so it's hard to be sure what Urban really said and what was retconned after the successful campaign.<br /><br />Four of the five generally agree that Urban talked about the problem of feudal violence in Europe, of helping the "Greek" Christians (whose emperor, Alexi I Comnenus, had asked Urban for assistance); and about the crimes being committed against Christian pilgrims and residents in the Holy Land.<br /><br />But. Only one of the five records the utterance of the now-famous battlecry of the Crusaders...<br /><br />Did it happen? Did it happen then and there, as we remember it? Well...if you go back to the primary sources there's only a 20% chance that it did.<br /><br />So you get my idea.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-42601881995003152812016-11-22T18:30:25.760-08:002016-11-22T18:30:25.760-08:00Can this be true? Georgie Bush's main man in ...Can this be true? Georgie Bush's main man in Baghdad attacked in Karbala by his co-religionists:<br /><br />http://www.basnews.com/index.php/en/news/iraq/313138<br /><br />Good on them I say.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-18890413273679189852016-11-22T18:09:15.015-08:002016-11-22T18:09:15.015-08:00I won't argue with that Chief. I think it is ...I won't argue with that Chief. I think it is true even for modern events regardless of modern historians access to division sitreps, after action reports, ships logs or interviews of participants. <br /><br />The scope of these battles is too big to put in a book. Perhaps only a squad firefight could be documented without error? Or a small boat action or single aircraft to aircraft dogfight? But even there something will usually be missing unless both sides are covered.<br /><br />What I do like about your historical battle posts is that you quote sources from both sides when available.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-56808975964430226312016-11-22T07:59:43.442-08:002016-11-22T07:59:43.442-08:00Like I said, mike; no question that this event hap...Like I said, mike; no question that this event happened. But if I've learned anything from my "battles" series at GFT it's that what we think we know about events that occurred in places and times prior to mass literacy is typically WAY more definite than is justified by a look at the original sources. A lot of ancient military history was transcribed by people with no military knowledge or experience, so events with a very low "military probability" were recorded as fact.<br /><br />Karbala was so straightforward as to escape the most common confusions, contradictions, and outright errors found in many pre-modern manuscript history. But I was simply reminded that a LOT of what we believe we know of the events in our collective past is often based on a very thin tissue of memory...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-17301587858264536892016-11-21T20:06:26.809-08:002016-11-21T20:06:26.809-08:00FDChief -
You are probably right re: Abu Miknaf. ...FDChief -<br /><br />You are probably right re: Abu Miknaf. But even modern historians are not eyewitnesses to events. Many historians say that eyewitness accounts of battles are many times flawed as they see only a small portion of what transpired. And back in those days storytelling was the way history got handed down. He may have heard from several or even many witnesses. A quick look at Wikipedia's entry on Aby Miknaf shows that his paternal uncle was present at the Battle of Siffin that was 23 years earlier than events at Karbala.<br /><br />And Karbala is certainly not the only event that <i>"has been transmitted to us through such tenuous and often fragmentary means.</i><br /><br />And if a little bit of myth was injected as part of the storytelling, that is OK with me. Most history of course is written by the victors. There may be a few crums of myth involved not only in Karbala, but also in Thermopylae, the Alamo, Camarón & Wake Island that captivates the psyche of all people regardless of culture.<br /><br /><br /><br />mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-56891689484766302802016-11-21T19:26:05.047-08:002016-11-21T19:26:05.047-08:00anon - Thanks for your comment. I was beginning ...anon - Thanks for your comment. I was beginning to think that nobody gave a rat's a$$.<br /><br />I read somewhere that in addition to police that there were 10,000 Hashd al-Shaabi militia providing security for Karbala pilgrims. No wonder that attempted bombing was stymied. I understand that today is the last day of Ashura, but all those millions of pilgrims have to get home, so the danger to them from terrorism is not over yet.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09123137206598163451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-1082058413815350972016-11-21T18:05:20.115-08:002016-11-21T18:05:20.115-08:00The thing I find most compelling about the 61AH ev...The thing I find most compelling about the 61AH event, mike, is the by-now-usual-to-me question of eyewitness accounts. A brief perusal of the internet says that the primary source for this First Battle of Karbala is something called the <i>Maqtal al-Husayn</i> (Arabic: مقتل الحسين), written by one Abu Mikhnaf (more properly "Lut ibn Yahya ibn Sa'id ibn Mikhnaf Al-Kufi") (لوط ابن يحيٰ ابن سعيد ابن مخنّف الكوفي ). This author is recorded as passing away in 157AH, or almost a century after the actual event. Give him the benefit of the doubt and let's assume that he lived into his eighth or ninth decade, which puts his likely working period back in the late Seventh Century CE (say about 80-110AH) which is still 20 years <i>AFTER</i> the events of Muharram 10, 61AH...<br /><br />Now. An event of this import would not have been easily forgotten, but, still...as me about something that happened 20 years ago? I can tell you that I would have a hard time recalling all the details of that event...<br /><br />And I note also that we don't have any of the original manuscripts attributed to Abu Mikhnaf; the four extant copies are all the work of his student Hisham ibn al-Kalbi (Arabic: ابن الكلبي) who lived into the Ninth Century CE...<br /><br />So; again...not trying to say that this event didn't happen; it very obviously did. But what I find fascinating is the degree to which we in modern times speak confidently about an event that is has been transmitted to us through such tenuous and often fragmentary means...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-7150267933171294522016-11-21T13:44:20.416-08:002016-11-21T13:44:20.416-08:00Thank you for the posting. No bombs yet at Husayn...Thank you for the posting. No bombs yet at Husayn's shrine but there was one foiled attempt in a village to the west of Karbala. And no bombs here in LA, but a suicider killed dozens at a celebration in Kabul.<br /><br />In Pakistan we called it Chehelum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com