tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post8105004915541610321..comments2023-10-30T06:31:05.501-07:00Comments on MilPub: The Battle of Kiev - September 1941FDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-24919941474826090262012-07-31T17:08:50.456-07:002012-07-31T17:08:50.456-07:00What an incredibly ignorant view of history.What an incredibly ignorant view of history.eeorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02657816556456124166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-260420013839182292011-10-02T16:55:53.318-07:002011-10-02T16:55:53.318-07:00Seydlitz:
I wonder if General Gehlen(sp?) had a...Seydlitz: <br /><br />I wonder if General Gehlen(sp?) had anything to do with sweet-talking the CIC and German High Commissioner John McCloy to not send Barbie to France back in 1950. Perhaps not, Barbie was SD while Gehlen had been Abwehr I believe. McCloy was also the guy that pardoned Krupp and several other NAZI industrialists. Turns out he also commuted the death sentence of a Einsatzgruppe Sondercommando Colonel who participated in the murder of Jews, Gypsies, Communists, and mental cases in Estonia and Latvia. That colonel happened to be the son of an IG Farben executive that he(McCloy) represented in America before the war. <br /><br />Klaus Barbie brings up Josef Mengele. Not that Dr Death had any American help. But one of today's news stories regarding the genocide in German SW Africa back in 1904 relates. Turns out Mengele studied medicine at the University of Berlin under Eugen Fischer who performed medical experimentation including deliberate infection with smallpox and typhus on captured Hereros, and used their skulls for his racial theories.<br /><br />http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/13026<br /><br /><br />Eugen Fischer,mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-58912204971357251012011-10-02T05:21:36.501-07:002011-10-02T05:21:36.501-07:00Leon-
Klaus Barbie?
mike-
Yes, it happened in t...Leon-<br /><br />Klaus Barbie?<br /><br />mike-<br /><br />Yes, it happened in the GDR as well, specifically a couple of generals who were instrumental in the establishment of the Nationale Volksarmee . . .seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-70600276304726247152011-10-01T16:24:39.189-07:002011-10-01T16:24:39.189-07:00Ranger - Our Secretary of State let him and some o...Ranger - Our Secretary of State let him and some other Peenemunde boys into the states in June 45. But the State Dept was probably bamboozled by the Army (or by OSS?) who doctored up their records to show no NAZI affiliation. <br /><br />Leon - At the time (after VE day but before VJ day) it was thought that their efforts could contribute to the defeat of Japan. Only later (after the Iron Curtain clamped down on eastern Europe) was their work thought valuable against Stalin. But in any case the same went for the ex-Nazis who ended up working for the Soviet rocket program. There were some ex-NAZIs scrubbed clean and reborn as Communists in East Germany also.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-27907983052283038912011-09-30T22:04:24.619-07:002011-09-30T22:04:24.619-07:00I'd hazard a guess that his knowledge of rocke...I'd hazard a guess that his knowledge of rockets was his "get out of jail" card. Weren't a lot of die-hard nazi's swept under the carpet in exchange for working with the west against the Soviets?Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-91659386781537148532011-09-30T11:07:37.811-07:002011-09-30T11:07:37.811-07:00Mike,
How did Von Braun escape any responsibility ...Mike,<br />How did Von Braun escape any responsibility for his use of slave labor?<br />It was all rather loosely applied, as there were good and bad nazis. Or so it seems.<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-76619921976471133492011-09-29T15:02:42.018-07:002011-09-29T15:02:42.018-07:00. . . oh yea that, and laptops are a lot cheaper i.... . . oh yea that, and laptops are a lot cheaper in Germany than they are in Portugal . . .seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-67976667175299667192011-09-29T14:58:43.925-07:002011-09-29T14:58:43.925-07:00It's jüst being överseäs I güeß, I göt üsed tö...It's jüst being överseäs I güeß, I göt üsed tö a Germän keyböärd bäck in the bäd öle däys, and häve häd öne ever since.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-55925932141253941782011-09-29T09:06:32.501-07:002011-09-29T09:06:32.501-07:00Completely off topic:
Μινς ισ Ελλενικι and drivin...Completely off topic:<br /><br />Μινς ισ Ελλενικι and driving me crazy, as the keyboard layout is also different, and my limited touch typing often ends up touching a different key than what I remember was in a given position! Usually buy replacement laptops in the US and carry them back from a visit or have a friend "mule" it here. However, a spilled cup of coffee on a keyboard left me without a functioning laptop, and the next opportunity to "import" one isn't until March.<br /><br />So, I just have to adjust, slowly, το α Γρεεκ Κευβοαρδ.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-1975151947513431622011-09-29T01:32:18.372-07:002011-09-29T01:32:18.372-07:00mike-
My keyboard is auf Deutsch, I even have an ...mike-<br /><br />My keyboard is auf Deutsch, I even have an "ß" . . .seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-9791758100324645492011-09-28T16:51:14.622-07:002011-09-28T16:51:14.622-07:00IMHO - In Leningrad Goering was thinking that they...IMHO - In Leningrad Goering was thinking that they could repeat how Kesselring bombed Warsaw into submission in September of 39, and Rotterdam in May of 40 (after the city had already capitulated), and what he tried to do in London starting in September of 40. How poor old Uncle Albert escaped the noose is beyond me, the Allies must have been feeling sorry for Hamburg, Dresden, and Berlin.<br /><br />Seydlitz: How do you get the umlaut - is there a special key combo for that??mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-69959471269888888152011-09-28T15:26:41.381-07:002011-09-28T15:26:41.381-07:00Jim-
No, we're talking 1941, Leningrad as in ...Jim-<br /><br />No, we're talking 1941, Leningrad as in my post. Göring boasted that the city could be destroyed from the air.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-50155176711370826152011-09-28T12:58:07.753-07:002011-09-28T12:58:07.753-07:00jim-
Very good point about the Germans being &quo...jim-<br /><br />Very good point about the Germans being "conquerors" rather than "liberators" in the Ukraine. I wonder how many German divisions that mistake "neutralized". Same situation in Belorus.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-64171087324881561732011-09-28T11:54:59.656-07:002011-09-28T11:54:59.656-07:00Aviator,
My atty Blucher Lines is the son of a CPT...Aviator,<br />My atty Blucher Lines is the son of a CPT.Lines who worked for Jaworsky at Nuremburg. I try to get him to write his father's story.<br />Back to G. I think Milch may have been the key to the Luftwaffe.<br />Seydlitz,<br />Do you mean Stalingrad??<br />jimrangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-21695568393469550682011-09-28T04:51:24.230-07:002011-09-28T04:51:24.230-07:00Mike- Not Mosley, which I did read, and also gave...Mike- Not Mosley, which I did read, and also gave some insights into the enigma of Goering. The Mosley book is what led me to read the other, as it was the first treatment of Goering that wasn't seriously skewed by post war anti-Nazi bias. May have been a book profiling a couple of key generals in WWII, showing strengths and weaknesses that were not generally discussed elsewhere. Been a long time, and while it and Mosley stayed on my shelves for occasional reference until I moved here, it was donated somewhere back then.<br /><br />While Goering never openly disobeyed Hitler, there are numerous instances where he disagreed, such as in foreign policy. Goering was supported of a much smaller geographic "Reich", closer to pre WWI situation, and was also known t have opposed the invasion of Poland in '39, as he was convinced Chamberlain would declare war as a result. He was equally tepid over the "Battle of Britain", still hoping that the two nations could co-exist. The Russian campaign was also seen as wrong headed by him. I'm not saying the man had any redeeming merits, just saying he may be taking hits for reasons that do not accurately describe his underlying motives. He was an enigma and a paradox.<br /><br />As to testimony by the accused at Nuremberg, much was tainted by attempts at self preservation at the expense of other accused. I think it was Mosley who wrote that once Goering realized that the Allies would not accept surrendering German generals as in "days of old", he knew the outcome of the tribunal was pre-ordained. There is sufficient documentation that FDR and Stalin wanted executions of Nazis following the War: <br /><br /> <i><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials#Origin" rel="nofollow">According to the minutes of a Roosevelt-Stalin meeting during the Yalta Conference</a>, on February 4, 1945, at the Livadia Palace, President Roosevelt "said that he had been very much struck by the extent of German destruction in the Crimea and therefore he was more bloodthirsty in regard to the Germans than he had been a year ago, and he hoped that Marshal Stalin would again propose a toast to the execution of 50,000 officers of the German Army."</b></i><br /><br />In the early 60's, I had the pleasure of meeting a then retired federal judge (sadly, his name escapes me) that FDR had approached in '43 or '44 to accept a commission as a Naval Reserve JAG Captain, "in case we need your services". He accepted, but when told later that FDR wanted him to serve on the inevitable tribunals, he declined, only because it did not appear to be an issue of legal justice, but "sealing the political victory". Instead, he offered to serve at sea to prove he was in support of the Allied cause, or as a defense counsel, but the tribunals' implied objectives made him leery of serving as a judge or prosecutor. He never was called to active duty. <br /><br />The judge felt that his view was indeed borne out to be correct, especially in the case of Nuremburg. He knew Henry Morganthau, and found the Morganthau Plan distasteful, if not a "Crime Against Humanity", at least in Morganthau's intent. As the judge commented, while the Nuremberg Tribunals were underway, Morganthau's plan, in the form of JCS 1067, was committing pure barbarity against the German populace. (Now you have an insight into where my awareness of and thinking on the first two years of the Occupation originated.)<br /><br />Sorry to have taken us off track.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-81166487322961234192011-09-28T01:54:42.721-07:002011-09-28T01:54:42.721-07:00jim-
Göring did take a hit after Dunkirk and the ...jim-<br /><br />Göring did take a hit after Dunkirk and the Battle of Britian, but with the successes of the summer and fall of 1941, not to mention Crete in April, the Luftwaffe looked formidable indeed. Which allowed him to make a claim like he did concerning Leningrad.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-47239159387776812492011-09-27T20:43:10.314-07:002011-09-27T20:43:10.314-07:00Al - Leonard Mosley: The Reich Marshall???
Jim -...Al - Leonard Mosley: <i>The Reich Marshall</i>???<br /><br />Jim - It was 'Uncle Albert' not Alfred. Not sure why you like his record?? Sure, he kicked our butts at Anzio and Cassino, but was that his genius or Mark Clark's fork-ups? In the 30s as Luftwaffe CofS he only pushed acquisition of tactical CAS aircraft and paratroopers to support ground ops and completely disregarded strategic air. He was also responsible along with Goering and Sperrle for Luftwaffe failures in the Battle of Britain. In Russia, supporting Army Group Center he misread the Soviet Air Forces and air defense around Moscow.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-32727817497161543472011-09-27T19:06:46.897-07:002011-09-27T19:06:46.897-07:00Certainly Goering was not much of an administrator...Certainly Goering was not much of an administrator. According to Vajda, "German Aircraft Production: 1933-1945," Goering "would work only occasionally and had little knowledge of economic, strategic or technical matters..." The Ju-88, dive and medium bomber underscored the problems with the RLM -- aircraft that were already on the production lines between 1938 and 1940 were subjected to 50,000 production changes.Podunk Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-18445667008060221852011-09-27T15:27:10.555-07:002011-09-27T15:27:10.555-07:00I think one of the most critical factors leading t...I think one of the most critical factors leading to the German decision to go into Russia was their misinterpretation of the political sturdiness of the Soviets. They'd seen the Poles, Czechs, British, French and the Low Country governments fold when they were pushed politically, militarily, or both. And their experience with the Tsarist Russians in WW1 was one of incompetence and collapse.<br /><br />It was their misfortune to run into the only other WW2 leader more ruthless and indifferent to the deaths of his people than Hitler.<br /><br />Stalin had a saying; <i>"It takes a brave man NOT to be a hero in my army".</i>FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-12827248349769934282011-09-27T15:18:15.746-07:002011-09-27T15:18:15.746-07:00Jim - There were numerous peoples ready to give St...Jim - There were numerous peoples ready to give Stalin and the Russians a swift kick if given the opportunity. However the racial prejudices of the Nazi regime guaranteed the Baltics, the Ukrainians and others would be treated horribly. Heck, there were probably Russians who'd have been willing to rise up against Stalin if treated well. In the end I guess they all decided that if they were going to be murdered by either Stalin or Hitler, they preferred it be the home team.Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15715768191516712688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-12271526494777045932011-09-27T14:51:00.037-07:002011-09-27T14:51:00.037-07:00Al-
"Goering's behavior at Nuremburg was...Al-<br /><br />"Goering's behavior at Nuremburg was not that of a drug addled buffoon, by any means. On several occasions, he tripped up the Allied prosecutors, debunking supposed evidence of his acts and whereabouts, using Allied information to do so."<br /><br />He wasn't because he had to dry out after he was captured. I remember reading where one of the Nazi's at Nürmberg commented that if only Göring had been so clear-headed during the war . . <br /><br />To give some background on Göring I came across this:<br /><br />--<br />MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, tell us what there is about General Galland's conversation with Goring, as far as you know it.<br /><br />SPEER: It was at the Fuhrer's headquarters in East Prussia in front of Goring's train. Galland had reported to Hitler that enemy fighter planes were already escorting bomber squadrons as far as Liege and that it was to be expected that in the future the bomber units would travel still farther from their bases escorted by fighters. After a discussion with Hitler on the military situation Goring upbraided Galland and told him with some excitement that this could not possibly be true, that the fighters could not go as far as Liege. He said that from his experience as an old fighter pilot he knew this perfectly well. Thereupon Galland replied that the fighters were being shot down, and were lying on the ground near Liege. Goring would not believe this was true. Galland was an outspoken man who told Goring his opinion quite clearly and refused to allow Goring's excitement to influence him. Finally Goring, as Supreme Commander of the Air Force, expressly forbade Galland to make any further reports on this matter. It was impossible, he said, that enemy fighters could penetrate so deeply in the direction of Germany, and so he ordered him to accept that as being true. I continued to discuss the matter afterward with Galland and Galland was actually later relieved by Goring of his duties as Commanding General of Fighters. Up to this time Galland had been in charge of all the fighter units in Germany. He was the general in charge of all the fighters within the High Command of the Air Force.<br /><br />THE PRESIDENT: What is the date of that?<br /><br />MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I was going to ask.<br /><br />SPEER: It must have been toward the end of 1943.<br /><br />--<br />http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Speer.html.seydlitz89https://www.blogger.com/profile/15431952900333460640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-26306411961124387862011-09-27T14:26:55.956-07:002011-09-27T14:26:55.956-07:00l,
To my mind G was obe after the 2 events i liste...l,<br />To my mind G was obe after the 2 events i listed.<br />H was delusional to listen to G's delusions.<br />jimjim at rangerhttp://rangeragainstwar.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-90731469246002669662011-09-27T11:51:05.069-07:002011-09-27T11:51:05.069-07:00I am on thin ice, because the biography of Goering...I am on thin ice, because the biography of Goering I read was at least 30 years ago, AND MY memory is not a strong suit. It was by a respected American biographer who pointed out the enigmatic behavior of Goering, who had a rather high IQ, as was learned at Nuremburg, where all the accused were tested and found, counter to Allied propaganda hopes, to be quite bright. In fact, they were retested in hopes that the first go round was wrong, which it wasn't.<br /><br />Anyway, the author posited that Goering's withdrawal into drugs was a coping mechanism resulting from the conflict between his solemn oath to Hitler and Goering's realization that the man was morally bankrupt and on a collision course with disaster. One example given was that Goering apparently was directly in charge of major transportation aspects of "The Final Solution", but never carried that out with vigor and slowly transferred that off to more willing and enthusiastic players in the Nazi Party.<br /><br />What the author hypothesized was that Goering was bound to his oath to Hitler years before, rendering him unable to raise a hand against Hitler, and thus simply did less and less to further Hitler's objectives. He didn't paint Goering as any moral or ethical giant, but as simply one who was early to realize what was going on and simply fiddled while Berlin burned, so to speak. <br /><br />The author presented evidence for a fairly convincing argument. Goering's behavior at Nuremburg was not that of a drug addled buffoon, by any means. On several occasions, he tripped up the Allied prosecutors, debunking supposed evidence of his acts and whereabouts, using Allied information to do so.<br /><br />It was a very interesting book, and I wish I could remember the author.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-15439023793681039732011-09-27T10:20:40.109-07:002011-09-27T10:20:40.109-07:00Seydlitz,
Didn't G take a hit after Dunkirk an...Seydlitz,<br />Didn't G take a hit after Dunkirk and the Battle for Britain, the air version.?<br />jimjim at rangerhttp://rangeragainstwar.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-31323421888618223102011-09-27T07:09:37.949-07:002011-09-27T07:09:37.949-07:00To all,
Von Paulus didn't need to war game thi...To all,<br />Von Paulus didn't need to war game this critter. All his conclusions were as simple as hell.<br />Then as now we fail to go against the flow of common knowledge and mystical thinking.<br />jimjim at rangerhttp://rangeragainstwar.comnoreply@blogger.com