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If they care about their neighbor within their borders, perhaps that extends to "neighbors" outside their borders?"</i><br /><br />And in the case of nations like France, have gone to the length of recognizing the TLC as the "government" of Libya.<br /><br />So what's our problem? Like I said to Paul, the Libyan rebels seem like people with a good cause? Why not go all in, sign the goddam treaty, and then we could land my artillery unit to fire off the runway in Benghazi if we wanted to in all good faith?<br /><br />The thing I'm sick of, Al, is these goddam backstairs, backdoor, weaselly cabinet wars. And I'm tired of us bankrolling these damn Arab dictatorships and kleptocracies in secret so they can bitchslap us in front of their publics.<br /><br />Like I said; I think this is the Libyan's civil war to win or lose. I think that "rescuing" the poor helpless bastards will just put them in position to be raped by the NEXT ruthless son of a bitch who takes over their country. I think they need to fight and win their own revolution, as we did and the French did and the English did (a couple of times, if I recall). And I especially think if they want our help, they need to man the fuck up and <b>ask for it</b> like we did with the French in 1777. That way they have to stand up to their Arab pals and say, yeah, see these Yankees? They're here because WE INVITED THEM, they're our allies, they're helping us defeat our dictatorial enemy, and fuck you very much, Saudis, jihadis, Palestinians, who sat there on their ass spouting anti-American rhetoric.<br /><br />THEN maybe this whole thing would be worth fighting for BOTH the Libyans and us. Instead, I see us getting nothing but the usual crap.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-64285122530726978972011-03-27T21:34:37.398-07:002011-03-27T21:34:37.398-07:00"Maybe you guys would view the no-fly/no-driv...<i>"Maybe you guys would view the no-fly/no-drive interdiction differently if you were in Benghazi and heard tanks approaching."</i><br /><br />If I were in Benghazi and heard tanks approaching I would - hopefully - be doing what I was trained to do and working my ass off to get a battery 6 on top of their turrets. If not, at least I'd hope I could scrounge up and RPG or five. I was trained by the U.S. government to fight for the U.S. If my country wants to sign a treaty with the organization that represents the Libyan rebels and send me with my howitzers to fight for them, all well and good. They seem like people with a good cause.<br /><br />If my country wants to have it both ways - fight, and yet not really "pick sides" (or even call it a fight) - then I call bullshit. Countries that don't look at foreign wars with clear eyes harm themselves. I don't think we have skin in the game here. My country seems to, and IMO if that's so we need to come out and pick an ally and help them fight, not scuttle around bombing people and denying we're in a war.<br /><br /><br /><i>"And maybe you might see the plight of the 23-year-old kid in a little more charitably were any of you on the receiving end of military justice."</i><br /><br />I was. I did. For 22 years. I was subject to the UCMJ, and had it used on me a couple of times when I fucked up. I see the "plight" perfectly well. There's an old saying; military justice is to justice as military music is to music. It's not designed to sound good - it's designed to keep the joes marching together in the direction the commander points. If you don't like that, end wars, and end armies. Until then, accept it for what it is.<br /><br />And yes, suffering always sucks for the sufferer. <i>Vae victus</i>, the Romans said; woe to the vanquished. That makes it worth not becoming a sufferer, no? Like, say, by intervening in other people's civil wars?FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-49121716709628591052011-03-27T01:24:43.082-07:002011-03-27T01:24:43.082-07:00@Jim - Exactly. This action in Libya does not in a...@Jim - Exactly. This action in Libya does not in any way, shape or form pass the muster for Just War. Our response has been so overwhelmingly lopsided, including killing of civilians, that it goes out the window. As I said before, 450kg's of high explosive are not 'weapons of liberation'. You could punch of fucking hole in an aircraft carrier with that (I think). <br /><br />This is most certainly NOT our fight. We are the ones that will suffer blowback from this, mark my words. If the Brits and French want to piss off the Libyans, that's their business. I'm sick and goddamn tired of paying for the defence of Europe. NATO is a relic of the Cold War and its time the US said 'Bye'. The goddamn Soviet Union isn't about to roll tanks through The Fulda Gap.Brooklyn Red Leghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02649492866049982193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-42948877152312365462011-03-26T02:35:22.409-07:002011-03-26T02:35:22.409-07:00I think that several countries' leaders are wr...I think that several countries' leaders are wrestling with humanitarian concerns as they unfold on the ground in Libya. Does one allow killing by inaction or not? I am not going to say that, for the people at the helm, such is an easy question. In short, some people responsible for various country's policy do seem to care about kids in Bengazi. Right or wrong, they have acted upon those concerns. Keep in mind that many of our allies do not subscribe to the American "every man for himself" culture. If they care about their neighbor within their borders, perhaps that extends to "neighbors" outside their borders?Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-83889062394751167292011-03-25T16:35:59.422-07:002011-03-25T16:35:59.422-07:00Mike,
Excuse me, but i don't care about any ki...Mike,<br />Excuse me, but i don't care about any kids in Bengazi. That is a Libyan concern.<br />I'm concerned how this intervention fulfills JUST WAR theory. Where's the greater good?<br />jimjim at rangerhttp://rangeragainstwar.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-15086433105839902722011-03-25T13:57:03.631-07:002011-03-25T13:57:03.631-07:00Paul -
Welcome back. My comments on history wer...Paul - <br /><br />Welcome back. My comments on history were certainly not meant to denigrate the plight of that kid in Benghazi. I and I believe every other commenter here sympathizes with him and the other Libyan protesters. My historical comments were certainly not meant to be tough-guy rhetoric. I may have been off on a tangent from the original post but that started in response to some comments on impeachment for helping out over there. <br /><br />I myself am torn between whether we should have intervened militarily there or not. I certainly respect Seydlitz's powerful arguments. I am for helping those in danger from Gaddafi's use of bombs and tanks. However, I wonder where it will stop - - - do we now have to establish a no-fly zone and bomb reactionary forces to save the protesters in Syria, Yemen, Ivory Coast and Bahrain and anywhere else??? What is your opinion on that question?mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-73490345072367793432011-03-25T06:15:40.563-07:002011-03-25T06:15:40.563-07:00These comments, 90% of them couched in tough-guy r...These comments, 90% of them couched in tough-guy rhetoric about battles past, strike me as sad. We all have our war stories. Maybe you guys would view the no-fly/no-drive interdiction differently if you were in Benghazi and heard tanks approaching. And maybe you might see the plight of the 23-year-old kid in a little more charitably were any of you on the receiving end of military justice. <br /><br />My point is that suffering is always new, always without precedent for the victim. <br /><br />Cheers, Seyditz89,<br /><br />Podunk Paul<br />Podunk PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-20885073673750999162011-03-25T05:18:39.338-07:002011-03-25T05:18:39.338-07:00Chief, mike:
Thanks for the heads up!Chief, mike:<br /><br />Thanks for the heads up!fasteddieznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-50764893751571942482011-03-24T22:47:07.203-07:002011-03-24T22:47:07.203-07:00FastEddie -
In the mountains of Tunisia, we had ...FastEddie - <br /><br />In the mountains of Tunisia, we had some cold wx problems also. That was probably just the three Ps or bad meteorology. Nobody in the states apparently had a clue about snow in North Africa.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-30785422649607426432011-03-24T22:32:14.468-07:002011-03-24T22:32:14.468-07:00Fasteddie -
Real historian no, not even close, Ch...Fasteddie -<br /><br />Real historian no, not even close, Chief has my vote for military historian of the decade. But thanks for the pitch. For Korea my thinking was along Andy's line above. Also I read somewhere, not sure of the source, that there were boxcar loads of cold weather parkas and mickey mouse boots sitting on the tracks somewhere north of Pusan and south of Seoul during the retreat from the Yalu. But as you well know, appropriation and pilferage of gear earmarked for frontline troops by HQ types and supply NCOs does go on in all armies.<br /><br />The lack of winter gear for the German Army in the winter of 41 IMHO is directly traceable to Der Fuhrer.<br /><br />AS for the US Army in France in the winter of 44/45, there has been a lot of blame laid on the SHAEF Supply Chief LtGen J.C.H. Lee. Known behind his back as Jesus Christ Himself. They say early on he was a fantastic organizer and did great work in preparation for D-Day. But later he doled out supplies like Sergeant Bilko by forking out goodies for past favors and retaliating against perceived grievances. His biggest fiasco was to divert scarce trucks and fuel to move his humongous headquarters of 8000 officers and 21000 enlisted to Paris without Ike's permission. Ike, Patton, and Bradley were enraged as they sorely needed those assets. Ike was going to relieve him but eventually relented.<br /><br />But an even bigger problem that probably contributed to the delay of cold wx gear arriving was the hold-up of taking the Antwerp port by Montgomery and by the shipping mess still going on at Cherbourg which had been heavily damaged. There were hundreds of supply ships stalled and waiting to be unloaded in Cherbourg and over the beaches at Omaha and Utah. And once those ships were eventually unloaded (one at a time) they were a long way from the front. The supplies unloaded at Omaha and Utah sometimes sat in rainy season mudfields for weeks or months before being forwarded as they had poor road and rail connections. General Lucius Clay (of later Berlin Aircraft fame) took over those problems and had them ironed out in a short time.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-68734763823252465092011-03-24T17:13:58.356-07:002011-03-24T17:13:58.356-07:00Chief,
There's a difference between blame and...Chief,<br /><br />There's a difference between blame and responsibility. I don't think Truman was to blame, but he, along with Congress, were ultimately responsible for properly provisioning troops.<br /><br />As far as Libya goes, what's tragicomic is that no one in the administration will say this is a war. Their new euphemism is "time-limited, scope limited military action."Andyhttp://organizingentropy.typepad.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-55738904660807042932011-03-24T16:19:38.477-07:002011-03-24T16:19:38.477-07:00fasteddiez: I don't think any reasonable analy...fasteddiez: I don't think any reasonable analysis could hold Truman responsible for the death by exposure of the U.S. troops in Korea. Their chain was responsible for their welfare, from their first-line leaders (who froze as well, so I'm sure they were trying to get the guys their parkas and Mickey Mouse boots) annd the way up to Mac at the Dai Ichi in Tokyo. I have never heard anything that suggests that the winter clothing was there and was shortstopped in the rear. The Army was in bad shape in 1950 and probably didn't have anything on hand, didn't anticipate a winter campaign (these were GOOKS, after all...), and then when everything went to hell the usual Murphy jumped in to mess things up...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-11415098116217302642011-03-24T14:03:17.952-07:002011-03-24T14:03:17.952-07:00mike said:
"......yet Truman sent thousands ...mike said:<br /><br />"......yet Truman sent thousands of men to Korea without winter clothing. Many of the 33,000 that died there were from frostbite."<br /><br />Since you're one of the real historians on this site, can you say if REMF's had a part in the misappropriation of foul weather clothing intended for the combat forces?<br /><br />In Korea<br />In WWII, winter of 44/45<br />Germans in Russia - Winter of 41, thereafter<br /><br />Thanksfasteddieznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-104206602981769862011-03-24T13:27:53.329-07:002011-03-24T13:27:53.329-07:00I see that NATO has finally agreed to take over as...I see that NATO has finally agreed to take over as bitchslapper-in-chief, while it becomes increasingly obvious that anyone waiting for the "rebels" to get their inner Rommel on will be waiting a long, long, loooong time.<br /><br />Oh, and I append this as an observation on your "victory here will strengthen Obama's hand to end the wars in central Asia" theory. From the BBC: <i>"Asked what should be done if the air strikes fail to restrain Gaddafi, only 7 percent of Americans favored sending in U.S. and allied ground troops in a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Thursday, and <b>only 17 percent saw Obama as a strong and decisive leader."</b></i>FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-10818081466443444802011-03-23T22:31:33.788-07:002011-03-23T22:31:33.788-07:00bb -
Truman? Undeclared war in Korea I think is...bb - <br /><br />Truman? Undeclared war in Korea I think is the same thing you want to bust Obama for. Plus you are worried about Bradley Manning being cold for two days, yet Truman sent thousands of men to Korea without winter clothing. Many of the 33,000 that died there were from frostbite.<br /><br />I admired LBJ, but he was taken down by Bobby Kennedy from his own party. BTW Carter, he was also taken down by his own party, and not by all of Reagan's double dealing with the Ayatollah. <br /><br />You admire tricky-Dicky Nixon - why did I suspect that???<br /><br />As for the right-wing takeover: Right now they only have the House and the Supreme Court. Now you and Dennis the Menace and Nader want to get Palin or Bachmann elected to the White House and make Mitch McConnell the Senate Majority Leader. That will be the real end-of-days.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-24045205911997742592011-03-23T16:29:12.187-07:002011-03-23T16:29:12.187-07:00The problem with the comparison of Jacksonian popu...The problem with the comparison of Jacksonian populism and contemporary populism is the goals of each time.<br />I'm thinking Teddy Roosevelt, bust the trusts, nat'l parks, health care for all. Truman, bust military prejudice, more keeping the corporate world in line, health care for all. FDR, public works projects to get the country up and running again, keep the corporate world in line, Social Security. LBJ ( civil rights ) & Nixon ( clean air and health care for all, although his efforts created HBOs which now are out of control ), yes even those 2 still worked "populism", and more than that, worked "what is the right thing to do".<br />As for the right-wing takeover, our justice department has allowed Citizens United and 2 SC justices attend right-wing extavaganzas, our current president thinks making Republicans happy and acting like them is the way to go, the House and Senate at least have some sane members but overwhelmingly things like abortion, planned parenthood, unions, tax policy, gun laws, immigration have a solid right-wing flavor.<br /><br />We have a whole string of states right now establishing radical right-wing agendas, thankfully opposed by some citizens who are <b>zealots</b> enough to get out and raise some righteous hell.<br /><br />The radical right-wing takeover is already here, if you haven't noticed.<br /><br />If the red-hot poker of impeachment rammed up where the sun don't shine for our current president doesn't get him inspired to FIGHT valiantly for the interests of the American people, nothing will.<br /><br />And we're not likely to get that result, will we?<br /><br />bbbasilbeastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-41701057556415187832011-03-23T15:10:41.129-07:002011-03-23T15:10:41.129-07:00basil -
Pls define 'populism' and 'cl...basil -<br /><br />Pls define 'populism' and 'classic Democrats'. Were you thinking of Jackson, the man of the people, who sent the Cherokees and thousands of other native Americans to their misery on the Trail of Tears? He certainly listened to the will of the people.<br /><br />There is no hardball in what Dennis the Menace and Nader are doing. They may think they are playing hardball against Obamaji, but all they can do is piss off the Zs and forck the rest of the population by getting all three branches of government in rightwing hands. Are you guys secret dittohead followers of Limbaugh? Maybe you just want to see the country fail entirely under a radical rightwing takeover, so that you can lead a glorious revolution later???mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-30679023797166211142011-03-23T10:20:30.146-07:002011-03-23T10:20:30.146-07:00Mike:
As I recall the young Turks also screwed th...Mike:<br /><br /><b>As I recall the young Turks also screwed the country over in the 2000 general election by voting Nader green instead of Gore and got Junior Bush elected.</b><br /><br />That's the way the cookie crumbles then, isn't it?<br />Sounds harsh, I know, but it's the truth. Ever since then, and before, it's my opinion the Democrats have not used a good dose of populism to combat the other side's style of waging campaigns.<br /><br />Obama is making noises on the deficit and jobs just like the Republicans. Overwhelmingly, by polling, Americans want gov't action on jobs, the economy, and out of our foreign adventuring.<br />Once Obama starts acting like a classic Democrat, or shoot, like a decent politician who listens to the will of the people, he'll do OK.<br /><br />But if he continues to act like Republican Lite, and fails to inspire people to vote for him, whose fault is that.<br /><br />Right now, DK and Nader are bringing up impeachment talk.<br /><br />A little hardball never hurt anyone.<br /><br />bbbasilbeastnoreply@blogger.com