tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post598484179720240727..comments2023-10-30T06:31:05.501-07:00Comments on MilPub: Irresponsible Speculation Who is Responsible for the Hospital BombingFDChiefhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-85745647732124870862015-10-28T07:41:25.771-07:002015-10-28T07:41:25.771-07:00Well, we've known for a long time that the gre...Well, we've known for a long time that the green beanie just means supergrunt, jim. The SF of your time is as dead as the dodo. I'm betting that none of the team guys in this fight would recognize a Mike Force if it bit him on the ass.<br /><br />And recognizing dead muj is even easier than that; if they're dead, they're muj.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-90257156391896964132015-10-28T02:23:05.959-07:002015-10-28T02:23:05.959-07:00Simple, jim. The US troops asked the dead guys to...Simple, jim. The US troops asked the dead guys to raise their hand if they were friendlies, and no one raised their hand.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-65699894199330650122015-10-27T10:40:51.265-07:002015-10-27T10:40:51.265-07:00Sven- Occupation doctrine (or Phase IV Operations...Sven- Occupation doctrine (or Phase IV Operations) has been well developed and in place for decades. It was tossed in the dustbin by Mr Rumsfeld in 2003, and since then, the US has not had the military force structure to perform a proper occupation, without a massive, long term mobilization of the Reserve Components, no less the force structure changes necessary to field an occupation force. As it was, for Iraq, all kinds of units, such as Artillery, had to be retrained to form force protection formations as part of Rummy's make it up as you go along approach.<br />Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-9711027039564825902015-10-27T08:55:24.409-07:002015-10-27T08:55:24.409-07:00Chief,
I know i'm preaching to the choir.
&quo...Chief,<br />I know i'm preaching to the choir.<br />"heavy fighting by Green Berets"<br />What's wrong with that sentence?<br />Next-16 enemies had been killed.<br /> And exactly how did/do they define enemies?<br />jim hruskarangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-18290271235867043422015-10-27T06:28:24.858-07:002015-10-27T06:28:24.858-07:00Technology advances merely alter the freedom of ac...Technology advances merely alter the freedom of action for doctrines. Some things are rendered obsolete by OPFOR technology advances (as well as by OPFOR tactics advances) and some things become feasible.<br /><br />The struggle of the last 15 years was that entirely different sets of OPFOR capabilities and political circumstances lead to entirely different optimal doctrines. The move from Fulda Gap doctrine towards occupation doctrine was never completed for real, and now they need to re-learn a conventional warfare doctrine with about 20 years worth of technological progress already.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-53518760438244795382015-10-27T06:07:14.528-07:002015-10-27T06:07:14.528-07:00Not making accusations, mike. The question is not...Not making accusations, mike. The question is not new. In 1983, at CGSC, we wrestled with whether doctrine should drive technology or visa versa. We pretty much agreed that technology can become a "hammer looking for a nail" far more easily than doctrine, although Dear David Petraeus proved that is not necessarily always the case. But then, was Petraeus trying to be "revolutionary", which is what often makes technology pervert doctrine?Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-31402461196775468432015-10-26T21:30:42.208-07:002015-10-26T21:30:42.208-07:00If you believe this Associated Press story, the US...If you believe this Associated Press story, the US intel community may have leaped at the opportunity to destroy what they considered a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and considered a couple of dead stray wogs acceptable;<br /><br /><i>""The AP has reported that American special operations analysts were gathering intelligence on the Doctors without Borders hospital, including indications it was being used by a Pakistani operative to coordinate Taliban activity. The intelligence gathering occurred as the U.S. was supporting the Afghan effort to retake Kunduz, which included heavy fighting by Green Berets.<br /><br />The Green Berets had asked for Air Force intelligence-gathering flights over the hospital, and both Green Berets and Air Force personnel were aware it was a protected medical facility, the records show, according to the two people who have seen the documents.<br /><br />The analysts' dossier included maps with the hospital circled, along with indications that intelligence agencies were tracking the location of the Pakistani operative and activity reports based on overhead surveillance, according to a former intelligence official who is familiar with some of the documents. The intelligence suggested the hospital was being used as a Taliban command and control center and may have housed heavy weapons.<br /><br />After the attack, some U.S. analysts assessed it was justified, the records show, and one report said 16 enemies had been killed, the two sources say. Those deaths were said to include the Pakistani, who the U.S. believed was working for his country's Inter-Service Intelligence directorate."</i><br /><br />www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/10/army_believed_afghanistan_hosp.htmlFDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-37499676363663776632015-10-26T09:41:29.289-07:002015-10-26T09:41:29.289-07:00Al -
Luddite, me? Maybe, but I prefer to think o...Al -<br /><br />Luddite, me? Maybe, but I prefer to think of myself as an old-fashioned, by-the-book kind of guy. I realize that sometimes the book does not catch up in time with new high tech stuff and therefore doctrine has to be short circuited. But that should be documented, disseminated and judged by others than the advocate-of-change who may be looking only at a small portion of the scenario. <br /><br /> Is there time to do that in todays fast-paced world? Maybe not? <br /><br />mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-13798495587847024972015-10-25T12:23:48.587-07:002015-10-25T12:23:48.587-07:00My money's on the secret bin Laden wormed out ...My money's on the secret bin Laden wormed out of the House of Saud - that chemtrails are real, and that Dick Cheney is a chaos demon that drinks the blood of infants under the full moon...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-9470781045287039702015-10-25T10:40:31.589-07:002015-10-25T10:40:31.589-07:00Chief/Al,
I'm still hung up on portions of Ben...Chief/Al,<br />I'm still hung up on portions of Bengazi.<br />Delta captured Ahmed Abu Khatallah, reported on jun 17/2014, and this was never mentioned in the recent committee investigation.<br />Also he has not been to court yet.He's been grand juried , but like KSM still hasn't seen the inside of a federal court trial.<br />What do these guys know that the US taxpaying public can't be told?<br />jim hruskarangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-17609170706034046052015-10-24T23:01:56.541-07:002015-10-24T23:01:56.541-07:00I wrestle with this often, mike. Are we Luddites ...I wrestle with this often, mike. Are we Luddites or simply bearing the painful knowledge of experience. When the wrestling ends, the latter is always on top. Change for the sake of change, as well as seduction by technology is often fatal. As a neighbor said a while back about the Israelis in Gaza, "A smart bomb may be smart, but is it also wise?"Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-66864575274670106862015-10-24T20:14:41.648-07:002015-10-24T20:14:41.648-07:00Speaking of nervous SF NCOs...
Something seems od...Speaking of nervous SF NCOs...<br /><br />Something seems odd to me about this "IS prison raid" story.<br /><br />The guy who DOW was a Delta operator. SFOD-Delta isn’t “Special Forces” in the classic sense (not that a hell of a lot of the USASF community is anymore…); they’re SuperRangers, gold-plated door kickers, Charlie Beckwith’s SAS.<br /><br />Delta doesn’t work with indigs; they’re not out there leading Mike Forces. They do their thing either alone or as a separate part of a conventional mission.<br /><br />So apparently the idea was to execute an air assault/airmobile raid using two separate maneuver elements; some sort of Peshmerga outfit and Delta. Why both? The Pesh are a pretty good outfit – I highly doubt that they needed Delta to kill Sunni muj; they’ve been doing it for a generation. <br /><br />So what the hell was Delta doing? Was this ALSO some sort of high-speed intel-gathering mission either along with or smokescreened behind the prison raid? Did the Delta guys go along to snatch some IS bigwig? Are we heading back into the days when US outfits would do night raids in Iraq snatching up who-the-hell-knew to waterboard them for phone numbers?<br /><br />Very peculiar…FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-21377036582944241682015-10-24T19:02:43.866-07:002015-10-24T19:02:43.866-07:00Much of military doctrine and standards were writt...Much of military doctrine and standards were written in blood, especially those that deal with control of ordinance. Override them at risk. mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-84485731830213352022015-10-24T12:23:48.109-07:002015-10-24T12:23:48.109-07:00You may be quite right, Chief. Been 20 years sinc...You may be quite right, Chief. Been 20 years since I hung up my spurs. I have no idea of the current ethos of the US military, but the very existence of people like Tommy Franks and the "warrior" shit does not sit well with me. I had fine colleagues who were in the flag ranks by Rummy's time, and they weren't comfortable with the direction the ethos was going, and simply retired, rather than "go along to get along". Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-33022588157425970442015-10-24T06:58:28.580-07:002015-10-24T06:58:28.580-07:00I think the question here, Al, is "do the &qu...I think the question here, Al, is "do the "authorities" consider this a failure in any real sense other than "we failed to keep this out of the news"..?<br /><br />I have never gotten the sense that the people supposedly directing the military campaign in Afghanistan have any sort of clue how to use that force to get to the presumed political endstate (Western-friendly regime in Kabul firmly in political control of the country) so I'm not sure that they have a grasp of whether this is a real failure or not, whether this will hurt the larger effort to strengthen the Kabul regime, or not, and if so how much.<br /><br />The US has always seemed to me remarkably "tone-deaf" in SW Asia, really, really poor at understanding what helps and what doesn't defuse the anti-Western and jihadist Islamic movement. I think it's very likely that most of the chain involved...all the way to the theater commander...may see this as an irritating PR failure over a couple of stray rounds on a bunch of interfering bleeding hearts who shouldn't even have been there in the first place.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-5120537625940890322015-10-24T04:13:23.593-07:002015-10-24T04:13:23.593-07:00During his tour as CSA, GEN Carl Vuono expressed h...During his tour as CSA, GEN Carl Vuono expressed his view of how to determine where and why something went wrong. You start at the top, and work your way down, using a guilty until proven innocent methodology.<br /><br />1. Was it a "Standards Failure"?. In short, were the Standards correct and sufficient to properly execute the task that failed? If not, go no further. Correct the Standard and take appropriate action with those who failed to establish the proper standard.<br /><br />2. If the Standards passed muster, was it a "Training Failure"? Was the training adequate to impart full understanding of the standard, and was confirmation of learning properly made? If not, then go no further, etc.<br /><br />3. If the Standards and Training pass muster, was it a "Leader Failure"? Did Leadership, at every level, enforce the Standard fully and consistently. If not, then go no further down than the highest level of leadership that failed to enforce the Standard, etc.<br /><br />4. If Standards, Training and Leadership all pass muster, then you have "Individual Failure", and appropriate disciplinary action is to be considered. Of course, that individual can be anyone from Joe Snuffy Private right up to the CSA.<br /><br />No what you normally expect, is it? Surely not the command climate arising from the Rumsnamara days nor the 24/7 news cycle.Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-17124429326918933282015-10-24T03:59:35.457-07:002015-10-24T03:59:35.457-07:00The United States Military is not a bureaucracy. ...The United States Military is not a bureaucracy. It is a hierarchical organization that uses bureaucratic structures and procedures to manage some of its activities. You can bureaucratize supply and administrative activities, for example. You cannot bureaucratize combat operations. You lead them. Been there, done that, from Marine Rifleman to Fire Team Leader, up to and including Brigade Command in the Army. When the chips are down, the actual delivery of steel on target is human endeavor requiring leadership.<br /><br />Now let's address the modern day bullshit concept of "the heat of battle". Been there, done that, both from the air and on the ground. There is a totally different "heat" impacting your decision making when involved in<i><b> the direct exchange of relatively effective fires</b></i> versus providing supporting fires versus simply coming under fire. Whilst the officer of the day in charge of a section of our base's defensive perimeter, what I had to do when Charlie decided we needed to be attacked on the ground by charging hordes was a far different "heat" than when he was simply hitting us with rocket and mortar fire. Similarly, delivering 2.75 in folding fin rockets on bad guys pinned down in direct combat with our forces is still another "heat" - they were too busy with our grunts to effectively engage a moving gunship a few hundred meters away.<br /><br />However, with the "Warrior" crap the Bushites so effectively ingrained in everyone, to include a significant portion of the military, way too much latitude for bad decisions has been granted to those delivering steel on target. After all, it's done in "the heat of battle". Again, I can tell you from experience, the "heat" I observed on an FDC and gun crews providing supporting fires to a firefight some kms away is a far cry from that when those same folks are in a night defensive position and employing muzzle burst and canister fires to hold their perimeter.<br /><br />Thing is, we've convinced ourselves, and the general public, that one's mere presence in the theater is having to operate in "the heat of combat". Yup, everyone in uniform is a Warrior". And thus, we excuse away serious human failure at both the operator and leader level, needing only a scapegoat to set the scales back into balance. Shit doesn't just happen. It is caused, by commission and omission. Yes, an unforeseen situation requires a non-bureaucratic approach, but that's where leadership comes in, and the burden of leadership simply increases as you go up the hierarchy.<br /><br />Of course, the weak or cowardly leader loves the bureaucratic approach. For everything, he wants a "rule", and regardless of whether or not the outcome of that rule delivers an acceptable result, he can confidently use the Eichmann Defense, "I was only following orders". And, the cowardly issuer of those orders can also use the "He should have known better", or "who could have anticipated" defense. Neither the bureaucratic superior nor subordinate wants the responsibility for "guidelines", as that entails decision making responsibility.<br /><br />So, do a bureaucratically based investigation, and limit damages for a poor choice to a convenient scapegoat, or no one at all.<br /><br />More to come.....Aviator47https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585964386930142907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-13614491811622994122015-10-23T09:22:44.964-07:002015-10-23T09:22:44.964-07:00And...I hate to even say this, but...morality is f...And...I hate to even say this, but...morality is for people, not for nations. No nation, or empire, in history has been "loved" for its justice and mercy. Rome didn't last 500 years because it was "just" and it didn't fall because it was "unjust".<br /><br />Like any and all Great Powers the U.S. does what it can and those it acts on - if they cannot resist - suffer what they must.<br /><br />As will we when we are the weak. I could wish otherwise, but that fate is likely to have very little to do with "justice"...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-88711229084271278612015-10-23T09:13:46.057-07:002015-10-23T09:13:46.057-07:00As Jim points out, there's no real reason to a...As Jim points out, there's no real reason to assume this was a "mistake". It may very well be that the MSF hospital had a bad reputation among the ANA hierarchy for treating wounded muj . I wouldn't put it past some ANA colonel to think "Sweet. Perfect excuse to get rid of those Talib-loving bastards..."FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-61138412611574712882015-10-23T08:46:40.493-07:002015-10-23T08:46:40.493-07:00The gunners onboard an AC-130 are the direct equiv...The gunners onboard an AC-130 are the direct equivalent of a cannon battery gun crew, PF . In battery the gun chief has what is called a Gun Data Unit or GDU. While it is linked to the FDC through the AFATADS it has no "fire control" capacity (<br /><br />In the aircraft, tho, I suspect that the situation is more similar to what in cannon artillery we'd call "direct lay"; the gunner can actually see the target and puts the crosshairs of his reticle on it.<br /><br />So my guess is that calling for fire from the AC-130 is more like directing fire from a tank cannon; "That tree to the left of the blue house! Gimme two rounds of HE quick!"<br /><br />So...technically the responsibility is on the maneuver commander in charge of the FO who.called in the mission and corrected the gun rounds.FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-57832504861787877692015-10-23T07:03:53.917-07:002015-10-23T07:03:53.917-07:00PFK,
The standard assumption that the US has benev...PFK,<br />The standard assumption that the US has benevolent intentions just may be false.<br />Why do we assume that this was a blunder?<br />This all reminds me of the Herman Hesse story about a priest finding the devil lying in a ditch and in need of help, if he is to survive. To make a short story shorter the priest realizes that the devil is essential to the idea of priesthood and religion.<br />He saves the devil because they are both in the same business.<br />I hope you see my point.<br />jim hruskarangeragainstwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126542922536584950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-22450863236128274102015-10-22T22:48:36.629-07:002015-10-22T22:48:36.629-07:00Thanks for the feedback, couple things:
1) I was ...Thanks for the feedback, couple things:<br /><br />1) I was taught there was a FDC in AC-130 handling the 105mm from inside. OBC mentioned that some 'lucky' SSG was running that gun, but there was no mention of AFATDS, that's my own assumptions at play.<br />http://fabiusmaximus.com/2015/10/22/kunduz-hospital-incident-afghanistan-90286/ suggests that the bigger issue is with a FSCC, but my experience in Afghanistan is that it is just as likely that the bird was commanded directly by the ground commander through a local controller.<br /><br />2) the military as bureaucracy is a truth, and this is an example of how that model breaks down. We have rules that should cover and handle all events, except those under extreme pressure and duress, which is most of combat, and so our plan fails and our bureaucracy fails but it remains valid and useful and the best case scenario. The problem is that when no one is held responsible for a failure, the bar is lowered and lowered and it quickly devolves to a situation where the bureaucracy is only an outer crust to protect from outside observation and a cudgel for ensuring discipline within the ranks and not useful for operations.<br /><br />3) This will bite us in the ass when someone else starts bombing our hospitals and ignoring our pleas to stop. While we have the upper hand, there will be no peace and no true accountability. We have rules in war because it makes it possible to stop fighting and control the amount of misery dished out. America's elite don't benefit from stopping fighting and misery dished out to Afghans is not enough to make anyone change things.<br /><br />We add up events like this slowly, but when the other shoe drops and America is no longer dishing out lots of cash and dropping lots of bombs, the reverses and abandonment of our nation will be swift. What's clear to me is no one will miss us that much when we're done being the world's empire.PF Khansnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-28728433769202948732015-10-22T17:30:05.011-07:002015-10-22T17:30:05.011-07:00Kobane, not Kunduz Kobane, not Kunduz FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-78293398786330443222015-10-22T17:26:21.753-07:002015-10-22T17:26:21.753-07:00I see that I left an important point out of the co...I see that I left an important point out of the comment above, which is that, absent a 1949 China or 1975 RVN type collapse in Afghanistan there will not be a domestic constituency for punishing failure. That collapse, if it comes, is far enough down the road that the Idiot Public cannot connect the dots between this and the Kunduz sorts of thing and the eventual defenestration of the local proxy. So...no penalty for this sort of error.<br /><br />And...without pressure to provide a scapegoat the services will go into self-defense and denial mode - CYA.<br /><br />So my guess is that even that ANA O-6's job is safe, PF...FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-381917167978264683.post-6109829117212388992015-10-22T15:47:30.178-07:002015-10-22T15:47:30.178-07:00Actually, I'd say that Sven's most salient...Actually, I'd say that Sven's most salient point is that there is no "penalty" for this sort of tactical screwup.<br /><br />I have no real idea how damaging the political fallout from something like this is. Could be trivial, could be significant, but clearly it can't help the guys on the ground. To kill a half dozen muj everyone involved in this goatrope managed to piss off a half-dozen-times-x other Afghans. That's just stupid.<br /><br />But - as Sven points out - in any bureaucratic organization (and don't kid yourself, Sven - nobody appreciates the Byzantine complexity of the US military so much as those of us in the belly of the beast) the the Prime Directive kicks in; CYA.<br /><br />So in that sense my question was purely rhetorical. I know perfectly well why nobody's ass got hung for this. Because to the Green (and Blue) Machine Afghan lives DON'T matter - at least, they matter a hell of a lot less than American careers and infinitely less than American lives.<br /><br />CYA, baby!FDChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607785969510234092noreply@blogger.com